本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2015-9-4 20:08 编辑
To Sunky: In respond of “親，u learn one apple plus one apple is two apples because u got taught when u were young and believe it . If u wana go for 牛角尖 u can say hang on one plus one can be something else . Same as my answer to you that I got taught that we r all sinful when born and I believe it . I am not sure what answer you are looking for and whether this will satisfy you I don't really care . 我只能說我儘量try my best to answer ur question but sometimes with my ability as youcan laugh that I m not a science or philosophy major . I don't know how toargue and position myself how to bring evidence to support myself . That'sbeside my point . I am trying my best to answer . But you have to know , 宗教信仰講得是信， 靈魂之類得並不能用別的學科來去解釋它，你要談哲學就說哲學，講科學就說科學，信仰是蠻靈魂的東西。besides it , 我不太清楚你不斷challenge 的目的在哪，如果你覺得我們沒被人這樣challenge 過嘛？ 哈哈 經常的拉，以前我自己也是跟你一樣去問一大堆問題，然後不滿意他們的答案， very frustrated , 覺得他們答不到我所要的，現在完全理解其實很多問題真的很難，答不出來。說實話，就像Lv 一樣 真的假不了 假的真不了，如果信仰真的不是我們信的那樣，總有一天我們自己會知道吃自己的果子，你不需要操這份心。如果你是真的虛心想要答案，抱歉我也是平頭老百姓， 怎麼答你都不會滿意， 只能靠你自己不斷尋求，總有一天你會有頓悟。如果你是來criticise的，隨便，什麼東西都會被諍議的，因為你重視它，你如果有更多時間我建議你順便研究Islam ,更多去學習。另外，如果你真的很有時間，活好自己，愛自己關心他人，多做好事，比我們在這裡吃飽飯沒事做討論有的沒的更實際。”
1 science and religion are non-overlapping magisteria-Stephen Jay Gould
This is one of religions brain washing technique called “Departmentalization” –psychologically separate the idea from been challenge. I am sure you already sick of me repeating this point but I quite agree with Stephen. The only problem is if you support this idea, please also support the movement of kicking religious ideology out of school science classes, please don’t tell me the earth is only 6000 years old, woman are make from rib bone from man, please don’t tell me there is a place under the earth that I will be burn and torture forever; because that’s not real, not proven by our scientific enquiry, that’s just your faith. What is faith anyway? I asked this question to our friend Chris and himsaid “Faith is believing in something despite of evident or reasons”. I think he spot on. Faith is not reasonable, faith is not logical, what is the point of trying to make it sounds logical and reasonable by giving reasons to validate “why you belief in god to start with anyway?” The biggest mistake I made is to try to use logic and reasons to persuade people, if you and your friends are logical and use reasoning to make decisions, you wouldn’t fall into religion at the first place anyway. It’s funny, that when I failed to use reasons and logic to convince you. You, Christ and Charles all celebrated and thank me to for proving that you are unreasonable. You made it sounds like it’s a good thing, an honorable thing. Maybe not for you guys, but for me, this is overwhelmingly sad. What else can we do to separate good from evil, What can we do to stop honor killing and what we can do to united humanity to fight diseases when faith point us to thousands different religions, war and self-centeredness?
Christians don’t like to admit that their faith is not logical or scientific. They like to trespass the scientific area and claim that their belief have profound understanding of the universe that our scientists couldn’t discover today but people in 2000 years ago could. And Christians support whatever scientific discovery that support their beliefs and discard whatever inconsistence with their beliefs. To them, they are absolutely sure that everything that scientists find opposite to their believe are wrong or just assumptions, only their believe in god is real and not assumption because they can prove it to themselves, they can feel it with their personal experience and ancient book written by barbaricand illiterate Hebrew which even sanction slavery is downright coherence.
You are damn right that science is not religion because “Science is the journey towards the truth. Religion is pretending you’re already there”-Erik WP. Science not just has explanatory power but also predicting power. The theory of evolution explain how human come to existence, but that’s not all. Theory of evolution predicted that if human evoke from primates that travel from Africa to Europe and Asia, we should be able to find fossils record show further away from Africa, primates fossils more developed and closer to today's human form. Guess what, we did. If we have someone with leprosy disease, if we treat them with MDT therapies we can predict a 99.9% success rate of healing this person. On the other side, bible also have a treatment for leprosy too, in Leviticus 14 “4 the priest shall order that two live clean birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop be brought for theperson to be cleansed. 5 Then the priest shall order that one of the birds bekilled over fresh water in a clay pot. 6 He is then to take the live bird anddip it, together with the cedar wood, the scarlet yarn and the hyssop, into theblood of the bird that was killed over the fresh water. 7 Seven times he shallsprinkle the one to be cleansed of the defiling disease, and then pronouncethem clean. After that, he is to release the live bird in the open fields.” But never mind the strong and powerful predictability on the side of science;on your side, you also have blood magic Bible and pathetic apologists with their lame excuses why thing doesn’t work.
2 Time will tell the truth.
On this point, I agree again. But, we don’t need to waste our life time to find out if something is truth or not because there are history books; the truth has already reveal itself in history.
Let’s start from the beginning and let’s stick with Christianity only: Since 315AD, genocide of pagans was wrong; pagansare not more corrupt or less current than Christians. (link) 1095 – 1291AD, the Crusades bring blood bath, around 20 million victioms died in the holy land. Link 1484 – 1750AD, Witches Hunt burned several thousands of women alive. Link 1500AD, Atlantic slave trade in 15 century, Bible has been the source of justification for slavery and a way to dehumanize black African. Link and anotherLink 1568AD, Spanish Inquisition exterminated of 3 million people by the church. Link 1591AD,Giordano Bruno was horribly torture and burn alive by the church because he discovered a scientific founding call Heliocentric. Now, we all know he got it right and the church was wrong. Link Since 1619AD, Galileo Galilei point out that tides were evidence for heliocentric system. It toke the church 200 to admin that Galileo Galilei’s intuition of heliocentric system is right. He was lucky; he died in aging before the church get their hand on him. Link <On theOrigin of Species> was published on 1859AD, only until Oct 28th, 2014, Pope Francis admitted that evolution is real. 155 years later, which is a progress on their side I consider. Link Killing Jewsince for centuries, non-stop,until after Second World War. Most favmous was the Holocaust by Nazi Germany.Oh, forgot to tell you most of Nazi Germany command was Christian. Link How about something closer to home? 1994, Rwanda Massacres, Catholic church play a big role in the genocide of 800,000 people. Pope France cleverly covered up until he couldn’t cover up any more. Link
There are many more, the anti-gay, anti-woman right, anti-science. I am sure you hear enough of those from me. When American was in Civil War, Christian split their position on the issue of owning slave. Some Christian realize that slavery is again human right inspire by the political movement in Europe; but majority of them mainly in the south are defending the right of owning slave and their best weapon to justifyslavery is the Bible. “However, you may purchase maleor female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You mayalso purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those whohave been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passingthem on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat yourslaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never betreated this way. “ Leviticus 25:44-46 There are more verses, many more like Exodus 21:2-6, Exodus 21:7-11,Exodus 21:20-21, Ephesians 6:5, 1Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48 and so much more. Clearly Bible did sanction slavery, that’s way Thornton Stringfellow(1850) wrote 《A Brief Examinationof Scripture Testimony on the Institution of Slavery》. In it, he cried out for the recovery of the good old traditional value of owning slave with the justification of the HOLY book BIBLE. Not just that, to fight again illegalize of slavery, Christianity in American split, the Christians that support slavery move to the south and become now called “Southern Baptist”. An entire denomination of Christian was created just so that they could hold on to their good old Christian value. Letting time move forward, if you talk to a Christian apologist and show them the verses in bible that sanction slavery, you will surely get a back fire. “You read it out of context.”;“That’s the old law for Hebrew”; I once been told that I was totally wrong, and apologist told me Mark 12:31 clearly say “Love your neighbor as yourself” which is telling us not to keep slave. It turn out is our interpretation that got the wrong message from bible. Of course the bible is coherence. The holy bible cannot be wrong, has not been wrong and will never be wrong; entire mistakes are made by fallible human and their incorrect interpretation of bible. Or, who can say there is ever a correct way to interpret bible? What’s the point of having a holy book that we can never learn properly or should I say we always get thewrong message? If there is a god, why god passes on god’s important message in a book that relies on fallible human’s fallible interpretation? 
By defending the bible, both you and Chris have said that those horrible things are all done because of human imperfection not by god/religion. Now let me ask you three questions: do you think religion have effect on people’s behavior? Is it possible that this effect can be both positive and negative? Can you not say that some of the bad things people do is motivated by religion or believe they really have god on their side? To what is worse, when believer committed atrocity like burning women, killing citizen in Jerusalem, they think they are doing the most holy things. Because they knew that’s what their god want them to do; because those people desired to be tortured and killed as their god said so; because they knew they are righteous in faith, not by the things they do.
3 About Life Church
I been to many churches, but Life Church is one ofthe worst I have ever see; that hateful attitude toward women and homosexual hidden under those beautiful messages and bible verses; that backward outdated thinking on science and morality; that greediness in money; that they are extremely evangelical, fundamental;
So here is the true story. Red Beach Schoolis a public school that host bible class. Theoretically saying, if children don’t want to attend, they can opt out the bible class. But the teacher will ask the children who opt out to sit alone in a corner of the Red Beach School's classroom, kneeling on the floor reading a book next to the rubbish bin. I am not sure how well you understand children but any parent can tell you this is a terrible thing to abuse the children; because that’s punishment in both physical and psychological way. This matter has been rased to the public eyes. new zealand humanist and rationalist association intervened and bring this issue to the High Court. This issue also discussed on TV1 about bible study inpublic school: http://tvnz.co.nz/sunday-news/bible-in-schools-video-6348585. What the school doing is the direct violation of freedom of religion - a basic human right, But also Injury many young children's mential health.
The picture show maybe Life Church have a hand on this:
Your church is systematically abusing children!
My last word Our world is scared by religions: the 911, Spanish inquisition, anti-Semitism to holocaust, be heading in Middle East by ISIS, prosecuting and killing of homosexual in African by Christians and so much more. Individual are also scared by religion as well, I see: child indoctrination; psychological damage that never been heal properly because of religious teaching; people turn away from friends and families that love them and care about them but do not agree with their believes; supporting a unethical institute that systematically abuse children and sucking money from poors; the ignorant, self-righteousness; the self-demeaning sadomasochistic relationship that we have to love someone we also fear; see something so exclusive as inclusive; see immoral as moral; being so arrogant but tell everyone that they are the most humble people on earth.
Luckily, we have people like Matt Duillerhunty, Dan Barker, Karen Armstrong that forever scar by religion but learn to wear their scars with humility, constantly remind themselves what kind of monsters they were, devote their entire life to try to undo all the wrong doing by religions; But there are also people out there that wear these scars like a badge of honour, these people unable to see the monsters they have become; until they does, they will remain a valuable tool for religions and a force of destruction of the world.
Christopher Hitchens once said “Our world would instantly become a better place each time a humble religious apologist makes a statement starting by apologizing for all the mistakes they make right from the genocide of pagans to today mistreating woman and homosexual.” Instead “Look at the good things we do, the hospitals we build, the charities money we give away” are the most popular argument they throw out. How very humble they are.
I am closing with a very well written sentence by Robert Ingersoll: “Let us in this spirit examine the Pentateuch; and if anything appears unreasonable, contradictory or absurd, let us have the honesty and courage to admit it. Certainly no good can result either from deceiving and have just as implicitly believed that polygamy was sanctioned by god. Millions have regarded this book as the foundation of all human progress, and at the same time looked upon slavery as a divine institution. Millions have declared this book to have been infinitely holy, and to prove that they were right, have imprisoned, robbed and burned their fellow-man. The inspiration of this book has been established by famine, swordand fire, by dungeon, chain and whip, by dagger and by rack, by force and fear and fraud, and generations have been frightened by threats of hell, and bribed with promises of heaven.” 1
TheEnd 1 Ingersoll, Robert.Green.(2007). Some Mistakes of Moses. American: NuVision Publications, LLC P.28
| 
发表于 2015-9-3 22:21:53
分享
收藏
