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标题: 震惊 10个证据让你相信轮回(组图)zt [打印本页]

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 20:19:57 标题: 震惊 10个证据让你相信轮回(组图)zt

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作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 20:20:52

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作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 20:21:35

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作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 20:31:48

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作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 20:37:47

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作者: bintoo 时间: 2014-7-10 22:35:42

7、8、10有亲身经历，6也许我儿子正在经历，但有待观察，世界远远比目前科学能解释的宏大。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 22:41:29

这些所谓的科学都被科学的debunk了。只有你才抱着伪科学当科学。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:02:47

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作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:05:56

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:02
只有你这种中共教的才会抱着伪科学当科学。

你知道科学界有peer review这回事么？你的这些证据的论文在哪里，经过peer review了么？在什么杂志上发表过？

你们这些所谓证据，有被检查和核实么？有被重复证明么？你们这些所谓证据的数据在哪里，统计分析过程又是怎样的？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:09:21

不过，对他研究工作的评价趋于两极化，支持者认为他是一个被误解的天才，而批评者则认为他过于轻信甚至迷信，他的结论在科学界也很少得到正面的支持。一些批评者曾质疑他的研究方法，称它们是伪科学。另一些人则认为，他的研究方法还是严谨的，即使他们并不一定支持其结论。-百度

Edwards writes that Stevenson became the world's foremost champion of reincarnation, hailed by believers and taken seriously even by some scientists. The Journal of the American Medical Association referred to his Cases of the Reincarnation Type (1975) a "painstaking and unemotional" collection of cases that were "difficult to explain on any assumption other than reincarnation."[38] In September 1977, the Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease devoted most of one issue to Stevenson's research.[39] Writing in the journal, the psychiatrist Harold Lief described Stevenson as a methodical investigator, and added, "Either he is making a colossal mistake, or he will be known (I have said as much to him) as 'the Galileo of the 20th century'."[40] The issue proved popular: the journal's editor, the psychiatrist Eugene Brody, said he had received 300–400 requests for reprints.[38]

Despite this early interest, most scientists ignored Stevenson's work. According to his New York Times obituary, his detractors saw him as "earnest, dogged but ultimately misguided, led astray by gullibility, wishful thinking and a tendency to see science where others saw superstition."[6] Critics suggested that the children or their parents had deceived him, that he was too willing to believe them, and that he had asked them leading questions. In addition, the results were subject to confirmation bias, in that cases not supportive of the hypothesis were not presented as counting against it.[7] Leonard Angel, a philosopher of religion, told The New York Times that Stevenson did not follow proper standards. "[B]ut you do have to look carefully to see it; that's why he's been very persuasive to many people."[6] Science writer Terence Hines has written:

The major problem with Stevenson’s work is that the methods he used to investigate alleged cases of reincarnation are inadequate to rule out simple, imaginative storytelling on the part of the children claiming to be reincarnations of dead individuals. In the seemingly most impressive cases Stevenson (1975, 1977) has reported, the children claiming to be reincarnated knew friends and relatives of the dead individual. The children’s knowledge of facts about these individuals is, then, somewhat less than conclusive evidence for reincarnation.[41]

David Barker an associate of Stevenson discovered that the famous reincarnation case of the child Rakesh Gaur had acquired through normal means the information.[42] Barker, who worked with Satwant Pasricha in the investigation of 59 alleged reincarnation cases "could not find a single case in which there was convincing evidence of the presence of paranormal process."[43]

The linguist Sarah Thomason has commented on an analysis by Stevenson on a lady known as "TE" who claimed to be able to speak Swedish, learned in a past life. According to Thomason "Stevenson is... unsophisticated about language" and TE’s Swedish is unconvincing as the other cases she examined.[44][45] Thomason concluded "the linguistic evidence is too weak to provide support for the claims of xenoglossy."[46] The psychologist David Lester has written Stevenson's subjects made grammatical mistakes, mispronounced words and did not show a wide vocabulary of words in foreign language; thus cannot be considered evidence for xenoglossy.[47]

Ian Wilson argued that a large number of Stevenson’s cases consisted of poor children remembering wealthy lives or belonging to a higher caste. He speculated that such cases may represent a scheme to obtain money from the family of the alleged former incarnation.[48][49] The philosopher Keith Augustine has written "the vast majority of Stevenson's cases come from countries where a religious belief in reincarnation is strong, and rarely elsewhere, seems to indicate that cultural conditioning (rather than reincarnation) generates claims of spontaneous past-life memories."[50] According to the research of Dr. Robert Baker many of the alleged past-life experiences investigated by Stevenson and other parapsychologists can be explained in terms of known psychological factors. Baker has written the recalling of past lives is a mixture of cryptomnesia and confabulation.[51]

The philosopher C. T. K. Chari of Madras Christian College in Chennai, a specialist in parapsychology, argued that Stevenson was naive and that the case studies were undermined by his lack of local knowledge. Chari wrote that many of the cases had come from societies, such as that of India, where people believed in reincarnation, and that the stories were simply cultural artifacts; he argued that, for children in many Asian countries, the recall of a past life is the equivalent of an imaginary playmate. He also argued that Stevenson's lack of familiarity with the local languages, and his consequent reliance on translators, had undermined the objectivity of his research.[52] Edwards wrote that one of the translators in India, H.N. Banerjee, was a past-life regressionist, and another was Dr. Jamuna Prasad, who believed that life after death was an "absolute certainty."[53] Stevenson argued in response that it was precisely those societies that listened to children's claims about past lives, which in Europe or North America would normally be dismissed without investigation.[54] To address the cultural concern, he wrote European Cases of the Reincarnation Type (2003), which presented forty cases he had examined in Europe.[55]

Champe Ransom, a lawyer Stevenson hired as an assistant in the 1970s, wrote an unpublished report about Stevenson's work, which is cited by Edwards in his Immortality (1992) and Reincarnation (1996). According to Ransom, Stevenson asked the children leading questions, filled in gaps in the narrative, did not spend enough time interviewing them, and left too long a period between the claimed recall and the interview; it was often years after the first mention of a recall that Stevenson learned about it. In only eleven of the 1,111 cases Ransom looked at had there been no contact between the families of the deceased and of the child before the interview; in addition, according to Ransom, seven of those eleven cases were seriously flawed. He also wrote that there were problems with the way Stevenson presented the cases, in that he would report his witnesses' conclusions, rather than the data upon which the conclusions rested. Weaknesses in cases would be reported in a separate part of his books, rather than during the discussion of the cases themselves. Ransom concluded that it all amounted to anecdotal evidence of the weakest kind.[56]

Edwards argued that Stevenson referred to himself as a scientist, but did not act like one. According to Edwards, he failed to respond to, or even mention, significant objections; the large bibliography in Stevenson's Children Who Remember Previous Lives (1987) does not include one paper or book from his opponents.[57] In support of Stevenson, Almeder argued in Death and Personal Survival (1992) that Edwards had begged the question by stating in advance that the idea of consciousness existing without the brain in the interval between lives was incredible, and that Edwards' "dogmatic materialism" had forced him to the view that Stevenson's case studies must be examples of fraud or delusional thinking.[58] ----------- 维基百科。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:10:48

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作者: tina223 时间: 2014-7-10 23:12:10

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:10
凡夫俗子的你去信中共教足矣. 上帝造人, 你不懂的多得是.

卖房，卖房。。。。。。。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:12:14

Ian Stevenson was a psychiatrist who gave up scientific medicine to collect past-life experience stories (PLEs) that he thought provided evidence for reincarnation. He graduated at the top of his class with a medical degree from McGill University (Montreal) in 1943. He also did advanced work in psychoanalysis, though he came to reject Freudian psychology. He preferred the concepts of the unconscious mind developed by the likes of William James, Carl Jung, and Frederic Myers, which "allowed for unconscious mental processes to be the sources or the conduits of man's higher creative achievements (as well as some of his pathological aberrations); they allowed also for the experiences we call paranormal and even for a soul" (Stevenson 1989). One thing he agreed with the Freudians on was their "awareness of the importance of mental processes in human disease. This element is minimized or openly denied by most investigators in psychology, genetics, and neurobiology. For them mind is a byproduct of cerebral processes and free will an illusion" (Stevenson 1989). Stevenson's recurring self-portrait was that of a maverick bucking the mainstream.

His interest in the paranormal derived from the influence of his mother, a devotee of theosophy. He was quite fond of the Society for Psychical Research, even though one of its early leaders, Richard Hodgson, had thoroughly debunked Madam Blavatsky, the creator of theosophy. (The Hodgson report has been disputed, but the facts of Blavatsky's deceptions remain.)

Stevenson is best known for his studies of children who claim to remember past lives, but he retained a lifelong interest in psychosomatic issues and believed his reincarnation data could prove useful in medicine. He did not think that every disease could be explained by heredity or environment; some diseases require reference to past life experiences. He believed that reincarnation could help him answer the question that had bothered him for decades: Why does a person acquire one particular disease instead of another? This question puzzled him because he rejected explanations for illness that were limited to consideration of genetic predisposition or environmental contagion. Stevenson considered the person and the person's body to exist separately and independently. He believed that not all birthmarks, birth defects, or even some internal diseases could be explained genetically. Some of them, he thought, were produced "via the agency of the previous personality's will" and were the result of traumas carried over from a previous life (Mills and Lynn 2000: 289-290; Stevenson 1997). He even speculated that whether a person reincarnates might depend on the will: "Maybe our beliefs determine our fate: If you believe you will come back, but only as a member of your own faith, that's what happens. If you believe you simply die and don't come back, you don't" (Shroder 1999: 77).

Philosophically, Stevenson was a naive dualist. He believed that bodies and souls have separate evolutions and existences, and he seemed not to be concerned or aware of the philosophical problems that ensue from such claims about mind and body.

His dualism became stronger after he experimented with mescaline and LSD.

This may seem paradoxical, because if a small amount of a drug acting on the brain can markedly alter our mental experiences does this not prove that our thoughts are only our subjective awareness of our brain's activity? For me it does not. I admit certainly that the chemical changes in my brain that the drugs induced released the extraordinary images and feelings that entered my consciousness. However, this does not account for the images themselves, which (apart from those that I could identify as memories) had no correspondence to anything that I had earlier experienced. Here I need to add that my experiences included nothing that I could prove to have originated outside my mind and, if you like, my brain. I had no verifiable extrasensory experience when under the influence of drugs. My interest in extrasensory perception did not derive from my experiences with drugs, although they enhanced it. (Stevenson 1989).

He admitted that he couldn't prove that the images in his drug experiences originated in anything outside of his brain, yet he claims that there was no correspondence between those images and anything he had experienced. Thus, his belief in the extrasensory nature of his drug experiences seems to have been based on faith.

Stevenson was one of the founders of the Society for Scientific Exploration and its Journal of Scientific Exploration. The latter, Stevenson wrote, was to "provide a forum where research on paranormal phenomena can be presented to other scientists without obstruction or derision."* He published several articles in the journal he helped found.

In 1957, he became head of the department of psychiatry at the University of Virginia (UVa) School of Medicine. In 1961, he began investigating past-life experiences (PLEs) and began collecting the first of some 2,500 stories, mostly coming from children, that he thought indicated memories of past lives. He left mainstream psychiatry in 1967 and established the Division of Personality Studies (now the Division of Perceptual Studies) at UVa. He retired in 2002, but not before logging in over a million miles to conduct his investigations.*

In 1964, Chester F. Carlson (1906-1968), attorney, inventor of xerography, and a man with a strong interest in the paranormal gave UVa a million dollars to support paranormal research.* Carlson even accompanied Stevenson on one of his field trips to Alaska, where he collected stories from the Tlingit peoples. Some of his UVa colleagues found Stevenson to be an embarrassment, but this was the university that Jefferson had founded with the promise that it would be "based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind. For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.’’ So, not only was Stevenson allowed to continue his spirit studies, he was able to bring in several prominent parapsychologists to work at UVa, including Gaither Pratt from J. B. Rhine's lab, Rex Stanford, and John Palmer. The funding came from Carlson's widow, Dorris, who supported their work until she cut them off in 1973. For the most part, Stevenson worked alone, though he occasionally collaborated with people from other universities. His UVa colleagues did not knock on his door and ask to join his research program.

Stevenson's spirit work covered a wide range of phenomena, including apparitions, near-death experiences, and mediums claiming to get messages from the dead. Most of his spirit work, however, was in trying to find evidence for the survival of human personality after death. He believed that the most promising evidence for life after death "has been that provided by children who claim to remember previous lives" (Stevenson 1989). Furthermore, he believed that reincarnation provided a valuable explanatory hypothesis for "a wide variety of unsolved problems in psychology and medicine" (Stevenson 1989). However, he resented being described by journalists as trying to prove reincarnation. He believed that he had produced a body of evidence for reincarnation that must be taken seriously. But he admitted that "the evidence is not flawless and it certainly does not compel such a belief. Even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations, and one can only censure those who say there is no evidence whatever."*

The best evidence for reincarnation, he thought, are the number of "cases of subjects who have birthmarks or birth defects that seem to derive from previous lives. These marks and defects correspond closely in size and location to wounds (occasionally other marks) on the deceased person whose life the child later claims to remember."*

In 1961, Stevenson took his first trip to India and Sri Lanka, where he collected his first batch of original past-life stories from children.

I found that the children often talked with strong emotions about the previous lives, and they sometimes behaved as if still living in the past life. For them it seemed still present, not past. For example, a child of low-caste parents who said that he remembered the life of a Brahmin would show snobbish behavior toward his own family and might even refuse to eat their food: from his perspective it was polluted. A child remembering a previous life as a person of the opposite sex might dress for that sex and play its games. One who remembered being shot would show a fear of guns and loud noises. (Stevenson 1989).

These first impressions would have a lasting impact on Stevenson's methodology and beliefs about reincarnation. The data collected on this trip became the basis for Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, whose publication was delayed because his publisher backed out of the project when it was discovered that Stevenson's interpreter was accused of dishonesty. Stevenson admits the man was dishonest in some matters, but he did not think the man had deceived him. So, Stevenson did not reject the data collected with this interpreter's help. The American Society for Psychical Research published the monograph in 1966. A revised edition was published by University Press of Virginia in 1974.

Stevenson collected stories not only from India and Sri Lanka, but from the tribal peoples of northwest North America, Lebanon, Brazil, Turkey, Thailand, Burma, and West Africa. He also investigated cases in Europe and in South America. As noted above, Stevenson focused on children's stories. He believe that the stories of two- or three-year-olds were the best stories because he felt that he could "reach reasonably satisfactory conclusions concerning the information to which the child might have been normally exposed." This would allow him to eliminate alternative explanations such as the subject having heard or read stories about the person he was supposed to have been in a past life.

Stevenson compared his method of collecting stories to the method required by those who study such things as the weather, volcanoes, fossils, earthquakes, and meteorites. These kinds of phenomena do not lend themselves to controlled experiments in the lab. Science, he said, is "a process for appraising evidence wherever we find it."* He thought of himself as studying spontaneous cases of the paranormal. It is certainly true that much science is observational and involves collecting data that occurs naturally and spontaneously. Scientists then examine the data collected and try to make sense out of it. Historians, journalists, and juries do something similar. They try to come up with best explanation for data collected or presented to them, data which consists of testimonies of witnesses or experts regarding physical facts, alleged observations, statistical probabilities, and so on. Many times the data are contradictory or unbelievable. Often, the data is inconclusive, but suggestive. In my opinion, collecting past-life stories is more like the work done by a historian or jury member than it is like that of a vulcanologist or paleontologist. The vulcanologist doesn't have to deal with the problem of spurious volcanoes. And though Piltdown man might indicate that paleontologists have to worry about spurious fossils, the issue of hoaxes has been such a rarity in that science that it hardly need be considered. The historian, the journalist, and the jury member, on the other hand, must constantly deal with issues like lying, hoaxing, and fraud. Most important, though, is the fact that historians, journalists, and jury members have to evaluate the words and perceptions of people, rather than the structure or properties of things. Stevenson's work would require constant vigilance against being deceived by his subjects. Furthermore, since we know that people can have memories and be completely unaware of the source of those memories, he would have to be vigilant in identifying which memories were likely the result of cryptomnesia. Also, there is the major problem of providing an explanation for how a personality can survive death and transfer to another body, something Stevenson had no answer for. Finally, the most problematic issue Stevenson would have to face using his method of collecting stories would be the fact that nothing could ever count against his hypothesis. Stories that are rejected as hoaxes, frauds, questionable, unreliable, or based on experiences in this lifetime would be discarded, but they wouldn't count against the reincarnation hypothesis. The worst case scenario for Stevenson's method would be that his evidence does not compel belief and that even the best of it is open to alternative interpretations. Unfortunately, that is also his best case scenario. Most people are not likely to be too impressed when they realize that all Stevenson had to show for over forty years of research is that it is now false to claim that there is no evidence for reincarnation. It is still quite reasonable, however, to claim that there is no compelling evidence for reincarnation.

Steven described his method this way:

In the study of spontaneous paranormal phenomena we must usually interview and cross-question informants about events that have happened before we arrive on the scene. In principle, the methods are those that lawyers use in reconstructing a crime and historians use in understanding the past. Once we have the best account possible of the events in question, we consider one by one the alternative explanations and to try to eliminate them until only the single most probable one remains. Then we try with further observations to confirm or reject the initially preferred explanation. In addition, we search through series of apparently similar phenomena for recurrent features that may provide clues to causative conditions and processes of occurrence. (Stevenson 1989).

What Stevenson was looking for were stories that could not easily be explained by hypotheses other than the survival of personality. He knew that stories of previous lives could get contaminated in a variety of ways. They might be due to cryptomnesia. The source might have been a movie, a book, a play, a radio program, an overheard story or conversation. He thought that the best evidence for reincarnation would be those cases where someone wrote down the instances where a child gives evidence of a PLE and then later the written account is verified. For example, a father writes down his three-year-old son's statements that he was Joey the blacksmith in Portsmouth and was stabbed by pirates in the neck on a wharf in Hong Kong. Later, it is discovered that there was a Joey who was a blacksmith in Portsmouth who was killed by pirates in Hong Kong. Adding poignancy to this account would be the discovery of some sort of birthmark on the neck of the child. One problem with such a method is that the verification process may not occur for a decade. But even if it takes place within a few months of the written record being made, we must take it on faith that the father is being honest. We have no way of knowing whether the father (or an uncle) in a semi-drunken state read an account of Joey's death to his son and told him that that mark on your neck is the mark of Joey. We have no way of knowing that the father is being completely honest with us. In other words, we have to assume a story is uncontaminated in order to declare the case "solved" (as Stevenson calls those cases "when evidence of a person that corresponds to the experient's statements concerning a past life is found" [Mills and Lynn: 290]).

In a fairly typical case, a boy in Beirut spoke of being a 25-year-old mechanic, thrown to his death from a speeding car on a beach road. According to multiple witnesses, the boy provided the name of the driver, the exact location of the crash, the names of the mechanic's sisters and parents and cousins, and the people he hunted with -- all of which turned out to match the life of a man who had died several years before the boy was born, and who had no apparent connection to the boy's family.*

As Mills and Lyons note: "Merely because a particular case does not seem to be explicable in terms of social construction, it does not follow that the PLE reported is a genuine residue of a past life" (302).

Stevenson would conduct dozens of interviews and spend hours searching through hospital and court records, trying to establish that there was no fraud involved, that the story wasn't contaminated, that there weren't errors in translation, that the events weren't just coincidental, that the child couldn't have gotten the information in any normal way. When he satisfied himself that there was no normal explanation for the concordance of story and facts, he would count the case as "solved" and see it as a piece of positive evidence supporting the reincarnation hypothesis. If he got a PLE story but couldn't corroborate it with facts, he called the case "unsolved." There is nothing that could be discovered by this method that could ever falsify the reincarnation hypothesis. And it remains a mystery as to what further research, that might be falsifiable, could ever evolve from Stevenson's technique.

He was fond of cases that seemed to beg for a paranormal explanation. For example, one case involved an Idaho girl who at age 2 would point to photographs of her sister, dead from a car accident three years before she was born, and say "that was me." The believer thinks the two-year-old meant: "I was my sister in a previous life." The skeptic thinks she meant: "That's a picture of me." The skeptic see the two-year-old as making a mistake. The believer sees her as trying to communicate a message about reincarnation.

Stevenson wrote of another little girl from Indiana who, when she talked about her previous life, made frequent references to the time "when I was a boy" and "when I was called John." He thinks she's talking about a past life. The skeptic thinks she's talking about this life and has some mistaken ideas about gender.

There are several problems with Stevenson's method. He often worked with translators in countries about which he knew very little. Questioning anybody is tricky, but questioning children is especially tricky. "Interviewer bias is the central driving force in the creation of suggestive interviews" (Bruck, Ceci, and Helmsbrooke 1998; quoted in Mills and Lyon: 303). Questioning children and adults via a translator introduces another element of uncertainty regarding the bias of the questioning technique. Most of the interviews took place in countries where reincarnation is an accepted belief. So, the translator would be "typically imbued with the cultural expectations that past-life recall is a valid phenomenon" (Mills and Lynn: 303). Stevenson, being non-fluent in the language and the culture, was in no position to assess the reliability of the questioning by the translator.

There is also the obvious problem of confirmation bias. The ideal, according to Stevenson, was to seek out PLE stories and then try to confirm them. Failure to confirm, however, did not count against the reincarnation hypothesis. In fact, nothing could be discovered using Stevenson's methods that could ever disconfirm the reincarnation hypothesis. Many scientists would consider this a fatal flaw in his methodology.

Another problem is that there seem to be alternative, non-paranormal, explanations for all of his data. Stevenson was aware of the fact that many of the features he was detailing were culturally driven. He wrote:

Critics of the cases have therefore suggested that a child's fantasies, perhaps of an imaginary playmate, may become shaped by its parents and peers, through their questions and suggestions, until the child assumes an identification with a deceased person. In this way the child becomes the subject of a factitious case suggestive of reincarnation.

This argument has considerable force, and its cogency can hardly be denied when we consider the numerous cases in which the subject of a case and the deceased person with whom he or she identifies belong to the same family or same village. However, it will not suffice to explain the smaller, but not negligible number of cases in which the two families live widely separated and, from all the evidence, have had no acquaintance with each other before the case developed. Moreover, in the stronger of such cases the child has furnished specific details (sometimes written down before verification) about the deceased person; there can be no question in such cases of imaginings, confused memories, and pseudo-identification. In examining the cases of this group we are almost forced to believe that the child has somehow acquired knowledge about a deceased person by other than normal means. If this be granted, one has still a choice among several explanations all of which suppose some paranormal process; and reincarnation is only one of these. (Stevenson 1989).

We need not grant that these cases can only be solved by appealing to a paranormal explanation, however. Coincidence, faulty investigation, deception, and other normal explanations are available. "Wilson (1982) proposed that people reporting PLEs are motivated by a desire to identify with a higher social class" (Mills and Lynn: 294). This concern seems especially relevant when dealing with cases in India and Sri Lanka. Sometimes cases Stevenson considered "solved", when examined by others, turn out to be less than pristine. For example, Stevenson found many claims by Sunil Dutt Saxena of Bareilly that matched events in the life of Seth Sri Krishna of Budaun. Both cities are in northern India. Ian Wilson notes, however, that a local doctor had explained to Stevenson that Sunil had been coached by Sheveti Prasad about the details regarding Krishna, whose family rejected Sunil as the reincarnation of their relative (Kelly: 91; Wilson 1989). Stevenson rejected the evidence against his case and considered it "solved."

It would be pointless to go through each of the 2,500 anecdotes collected and try to debunk, say, the top 100. Little would be gained by such an exercise. (For an example of a debunking of the case Stevenson thought was the best in his Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, see Leonard Angel's deconstruction of the case of Imad Elawar.) We can admit before the investigation begins that reincarnation is possible, even if we have no idea how it might occur. But even the best story could be contaminated and Stevenson's methods of collecting and validating data leave much to be desired. For example, Imad Elawar claimed that he was Mahmoud Bouhamzy, a truck driver who died of tuberculosis 25 years earlier and who had a wife called Jamilah.

The best past-life candidate Stevenson found [for Imad Elawar] was not named Mahmoud Bouhamzy, did not have a wife named Jamilah, and did not die as a result of an accident at all, let alone one that followed a quarrel with the driver. Yet Stevenson does not give sufficient information for the reader to know what exactly the parents or the boy himself said that entitled Stevenson to discount the original claims as interpreted by the parents and instead present the very different claims given in the tabulation [he produced]. (Angel 1994)

Stevenson came up with a list of 57 items that he said were produced by the parents or the child prior to his attempted verification.

But the form in which they were originally recorded is not given. Inspection of the items of the tabulation makes clear the need for a record of just what the parents said, how Stevenson recorded their data prior to verification, and how it was or was not subsequently reorganized for presentation in tabular form. (Angel 1994)

Stevenson's method is reminiscent of the kind of subjective validation process that goes on during cold readings. For example,

Under Stevenson's "Comments" we find "Mahmoud Bouhamzy was an uncle of Ibrahim Bouhamzy." (Ibrahim Bouhamzy is the apparent past-life of the boy, according to Stevenson.) Thus it is taken as verified that a name the boy mentioned corresponded to a real person in the past-life's family, as though it is clear that the boy had been mentioning a name by way of referring to that uncle.

....the boy referred to a full well and an empty well at the home of the past-life. This is taken as confirmed by the fact that there were two vats used for storing grape juice. "During the rainy season one of these vats became filled with water, but the other, shallower vat did not, because the water evaporated from it. Thus one would be empty while the other was full". Does a five-year-old Druse village boy not know the difference between a vat and a well? (Angel 1994)

Stevenson himself admitted that he hadn't provided compelling evidence for reincarnation. What might be of some value, however, is to examine his data for recurrent features.

One of the things he found was

a high incidence of violent death in the persons whose lives the children remember. This feature occurs in the cases of all ten cultures for which we have examined groups of cases; although the incidence of violent death in the cases varies from one culture to another, it is far higher among the cases than in the general populations from which they are drawn. (Stevenson 1989).

One explanation for this might be that a violent death is easier to remember than a quiet one. On the other hand, if you're going to remember having died and the whole thing is a story, it makes sense that the death be violent to add drama to the story. A better explanation, however, would seem to be that violent deaths are more likely to be reported in the media, the pubs, the shops, and the like, and are thus more likely to travel around from village to village where they could be overheard by children. But whatever the explanation, the curious fact remains of excessive violent deaths in reported PLEs.

Some recurrent features were found by Stevenson to vary considerably from culture to culture, including the occurrence of dreams in which a deceased person seems to announce to the dreamer the intention of being reborn (usually in the family of the dreamer).* Stories of prophetic dreams in which an announcement is made by a spirit, an angel, an ancestor, are found in many cultures. Instead of seeing this as magical thinking and indicative of a pre-scientific worldview, Stevenson takes these dreams seriously and literally.

He also found that males report many more PLEs than females: 63% to 37% (Mills and Lynn: 292). He found that older children and adults generally forget the PLEs they reported as children (Mills and Lynn: 293).

In addition to his claim that he thought some current fears, likes, and dislikes could be explained by the personalities or experiences of past lives, Stevenson believed that birthmarks and birth defects occur with undue frequency in children who remember past lives. In 43 of his 2,500 collected cases, Stevenson found "a medical document, such as a postmortem report, indicated the location of the wound on the deceased, which sometimes appeared to be strikingly close to the location of the birthmark or birth defect in the child" (Mills and Lynn: 294). He also claimed that there are birthmarks or birth defects in about one-third of the cases of children who report a PLE and that some of these are not genetically explicable (Mills and Lynn: 298). Stevenson constructed a grid for the average adult body that divides the skin into 160 squares of 10 centimeters each. He then calculated the odds of finding a birthmark that would correspond to a wound in a previous body as 1/160. Two corresponding wounds would have odds of 1/25,600. He had 18 cases of the latter. Even so, I think that he would have to admit that this kind of measuring is not rocket science but guesswork. These data are interesting, but we have nothing to compare them to. So, we don't know what these odd facts mean. Also, Stevenson had no explanation for why bodily wounds would carry over to the body of a personality that was reincarnated or why an experience in one life would carry over to a phobia or philia in another. To the disinterested observer, such ideas are clearly in the realm of magical thinking.

Finally, there is the claim that Stevenson made that xenoglossy provides evidence of reincarnation. We have already noted that he was no expert on the problems of experimenter bias and expectancy bias in interrogation. Nor was he an expert in the languages and cultures where his stories originated, necessitating his use of translators whose flaws he was not qualified to observe or identify. He was not an expert on languages. Hiring a linguist to listen to a tape, as Stevenson did with the best of his xenoglossic reincarnates, was a good idea. But he might have considered that Uttara Huddara, a Marathi woman in Mumbai (Bombay) who could speak Bengali, could have acquired her ability by natural means. In any case, it is not unusual for someone to speak several languages in a country that is populated by people from many language groups. Linguist Sarah Thomason noted that Bengali and Marathi are closely related languages, the woman had a life-long interest in Bengali language and culture, and had many Bengali acquaintances, and people in Bombay often see films that were made in Bengali. The rest of Stevenson's cases, according to Thomason, involved people whose linguistic display was minimal and could be explained by casual exposure (Thomason 1987; Kelly 2004). A person may be able to utter 100 or so words in a non-native language, but that hardly counts as speaking or understanding that language. Stevenson listened to a tape where a woman uttered some German words while hypnotized but couldn't answer questions in German and didn't indicate any knowledge of grammar, and he declared this is evidence for reincarnation. He blamed her poor language skills on her poverty and illiteracy in a previous lifetime. A linguist listened to the same tape and noted that even the poor and the illiterate use some grammar. She declared that the woman's understanding of German was minimal and consistent with a casual acquaintance with the language (Kelly 2004: 95).

What possesses a man of Stevenson's intelligence to chase after chimeras and produce thousands of pages of detailed reports that amount to a heap of rationalizations? As Michael Shermer succinctly put it: "Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons."* Stevenson spent about half his life trying to find support for his beliefs in reincarnation and their relationship to medicine. The beliefs came first. The intelligence was applied to confirming the beliefs. I don't think he is unique in this regard. Those of us who are skeptical of Stevenson's work might like to think that we are exercising more critical judgment on these investigations than he did because we have chosen to be disinterested and objective in our research and he chose to be biased. Any of us could have ended up as Stevenson did, however, had we his intelligence and had we not been led down a different path by many accidents over which we had no control. I can only speculate what other path Stevenson might have traveled had the American Society for Psychical Research rejected his essay in 1958 when he entered a competition for work on survival of personality after death (Wilson 1982: 2). If, instead of awarding him first prize for his entry based on the work others had done collecting stories of past life experiences, the Society had told him that this line of inquiry was a colossal waste of time and that he was foolish for even considering these stories credible evidence for life after death, would he have been inspired to spend the rest of his life tracking down such stories?

Few critics will be willing to spend much time poring over his detailed anecdotes and tedious reports. (One journalist, Tom Shroder of the Washington Post, spent a year following Stevenson around, assisting him in his investigations, and came back to write a book about it and how it made him a believer. Old Souls is an interesting read but the author is not very critical in his observations. He takes a lot at face value and seems not to understand the dangers of confirmation bias. Mary Roach went on location with one of Stevenson's fellow PLE story collectors and came back asking: "is he investigating reincarnation, or merely hunting for evidence in its favor? How can he remain unbiased?" (2005: p. 48).)

Those who want to believe in survival of a personality after death will likely ignore the weaknesses in Stevenson's methods and praise him for his meticulousness, his devotion to detail, his zeal to get every claim verified or disproved. For my part, I have to agree with Stevenson's own assessment of his work: he's provided evidence, but no compelling evidence for reincarnation. I see no way to move forward using his methods or his data, so I see his work as a colossal waste of time. On the positive side, however, I agree with him that past life regressive therapy, which uses hypnosis, is rife with methodological problems, not the least of which is the problem with suggestion contaminating any evidence that might be uncovered for a past life. Hence, past life regression cannot provide good evidence for reincarnation. Neither can collecting more stories from children who claim to have lived previous lives unless better methods of documentation, questioning witnesses and alleged experients, and verifying claims are developed.

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:12:55

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:10
凡夫俗子的你去信中共教足矣. 上帝造人, 你不懂的多得是.

搞不懂你到底信佛的还是信耶稣的，大概你自己也没搞懂。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:13:08

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作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:14:31

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作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:16:56

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-7-10 22:18 编辑

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:14
都信, 中共教除外.

你还真搞笑。挺有做相声演员的天赋的。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:17:58

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作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:19:44

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-7-10 22:23 编辑

看来你是得到了佛教和基督教的精华，你是又虔诚，又谦虚，还温和，既不骂人也不人身攻击。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:28:33

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作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:30:03

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:28
那还用说, TOOTH TO TOOTH.

你其实还信了伊斯兰教吧，隐藏得还挺深的。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:31:36

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:28
那还用说, TOOTH TO TOOTH.

对了，我请教一下你。作为一个虔诚的佛教徒请你告诉我，那本佛教的经文是教人“TOOTH TO TOOTH”的？还写的是英文，真时髦。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:32:26

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作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-10 23:33:23

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作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:36:22

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:33
对DEVIL要“TOOTH TO TOOTH”

你怎么定义devil的？跟你观点不一样的人就是devil？

你的上帝就最喜欢吧非教徒称作devil，然后来正义化屠杀。

同样的事情，希特勒也干过，他把所有犹太人都称作devil，所以他来了个宗族灭绝。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:37:20

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:32
少抬杠捧屎盖, 赚分? 赚钱? 我不上当, 走人.

信就信呗，又没什么大不了的事情，反正多信几个上天堂的机会肯定高很多。

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:38:11

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:36
你怎么定义devil的？跟你观点不一样的人就是devil？

你的上帝就最喜欢吧非教徒称作devil，然后来正义化 ...

我只希望你别学'老毛'成了DEVIL.

作者: tina223 时间: 2014-7-10 23:38:24

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:37
信就信呗，又没什么大不了的事情，反正多信几个上天堂的机会肯定高很多。

你和他说话是在浪费时间

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:40:10

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:38
我只希望你别学'老毛'成了DEVIL.

教徒要屠杀异见人士都会先说他们是devil，看来你也挺有天赋进行宗教屠杀的。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:41:03

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-7-10 22:41 编辑

tina223 发表于 2014-7-10 22:38
你和他说话是在浪费时间

不是，他的思想是不会因为我的言论改变的，但是旁观的网友会看得更清楚。
难的是在他人身攻击，无理取闹的时候保持自我的理性。

作者: tina223 时间: 2014-7-10 23:41:15

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:38
我只希望你别学'老毛'成了DEVIL.

LOL>... keen to hop back in the clinks one more time?

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:41:39

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:40
教徒要屠杀异见人士都会先说他们是devil，看来你也挺有天赋进行宗教屠杀的。

中共要屠杀异见人士都会先说他们是devil，看来你也挺有天赋进行政治屠杀的。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:42:58

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:41
中共要屠杀异见人士都会先说他们是devil，看来你也挺有天赋进行政治屠杀的。

我没有说过谁是devil，不过你和Q哥都这么说我。

可能我真的比较devil吧，不过我不想死

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:43:17

tina223 发表于 2014-7-10 22:41
LOL>... keen to hop back in the clinks one more time?

八分之一德国血统的英文

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:44:44

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:42
我没有说过谁是devil，不过你和Q哥都这么说我。

你公然诋毁宗教, 在教徒眼中你就是DEVIL.

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:46:16

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:44
你公然诋毁宗教, 在教徒眼中你就是DEVIL.

批评，难道你们只能被歌颂，却听不惯和无法接受批评的声音？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:46:47

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-7-10 22:47 编辑

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:44
你公然诋毁宗教, 在教徒眼中你就是DEVIL.

教徒看同性恋和科学家也都是devil，他们怎么看我我可没兴趣知道。

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:47:15

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:46
批评，难道你们只能被歌颂，却听不惯和无法接受批评的声音？

难道你们中共教只能被歌颂，却听不惯和无法接受批评的声音？

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:50:01

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:46
教徒看同性恋和科学家也都是devil，他们怎么看我我可没兴趣知道。

你个抹黑宗教的无神论者如何能替几十亿的教徒们代言?

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:52:27

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:47
难道你们中共教只能被歌颂，却听不惯和无法接受批评的声音？

你要批评中国共产党，那随便，我又不是党员，虽然我是想加入，但是他们不要我。

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:53:12

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:52
你要批评中国共产党，那随便，我又不是党员，虽然我是想加入，但是他们不要我。

你的话谁信?

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:54:45

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:50
你个抹黑宗教的无神论者如何能替几十亿的教徒们代言?

污蔑是在没有证据的情况下的指责。

我说你们圣经里面神杀了2500万人，引用的都是你们圣经的故事。

我说你们迫害妇女，那是你们活烧妇女的过去。

我说你们反对科学，是你们杀死和活烧科学家的历史故事。

我说你们屠杀异教徒，那是你们圣经就自己写出来的。

不是我抹黑，是你们没有白过。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:56:27

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:53
你的话谁信?

你不是连神都信，你还有什么不能信的？

你有什么证据支持你的“信”了？你的信又是从谁的话里面信过来的？

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:56:57

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:54
污蔑是在没有证据的情况下的指责。

我说你们圣经里面神杀了2500万人，引用的都是你们圣经的故事。

是中共杀了5000万人, 都是你们国内中国人的故事.

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-10 23:58:15

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:56
你不是连神都信，你还有什么不能信的？

你有什么证据支持你的“信”了？你的信又是从谁的话里面信过来 ...

你的不信又是从中共教里谁的话里面信过来?

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-10 23:59:10

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:56
是中共杀了5000万人, 都是你们国内中国人的故事.

所以？他们的确不应该杀这么多人。

你们宗教历史以来杀的人大概也上10亿了。所以，那些异教徒都是devil？都是该杀的？

作者: dc. 时间: 2014-7-11 00:00:50

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-7-10 22:59
所以？他们的确不应该杀这么多人。

你们宗教历史以来杀的人大概也上10亿了。所以，那些异教徒都是devi ...

你继续造谣吧, 移民局早已盯上你了.

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-11 00:01:55

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-7-10 23:23 编辑

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 22:58
你的不信又是从中共教里谁的话里面信过来?

怎么你们这么喜欢说“中共教”？因为你们觉得在名词后面加个“教”字就是贬义的意思？这一点我非常赞同，什么天主教（强奸小男童），基督教（压迫妇女地位），全能教（济南杀人案）等等。你们还是有一点点那么少少的一丁点人性的哦。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-11 00:03:24

dc. 发表于 2014-7-10 23:00
你继续造谣吧, 移民局早已盯上你了.

移民局，警察局，国安局，电信局，税务局，全部局都盯上我了，我好害怕哦。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-7-11 00:04:28

还没开始玩就有人被监禁了，不过瘾。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-11 00:40:19

carter 发表于 2014-7-10 22:10
凡夫俗子的你去信中共教足矣. 上帝造人, 你不懂的多得是.

Q哥你接着扯…
人家基督教的根本就不承认前世…看你作的这么欢……

作者: viper77 时间: 2014-7-11 01:10:23

lychee 发表于 2014-7-10 23:40
Q哥你接着扯…
人家基督教的根本就不承认前世…看你作的这么欢……

一但有人把实话说出来就不好玩了

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-11 01:16:05

viper77 发表于 2014-7-11 00:10
一但有人把实话说出来就不好玩了

啊呀……真不好意思哇…一不小心就说实话了…

我下次注意点…收敛收敛哈……

作者: jsmith2 时间: 2014-7-11 01:43:53

輸迴嗎。現代來說就是回收循環再用 (Recycle) 。
基督文化裡是有始有終的末日論。到全面接觸東方哲學後才懂得Recycle。

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-11 01:46:17

奇能异事只能说明有外在力量作用。
经文讲过保罗也曾遇到过那个有异能的女童。众人因为她的异能，开始献祭膜拜。保罗驳斥了那在女童身上的灵，异能就止住了。

YOLO

作者: bintoo 时间: 2014-7-11 09:19:35

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-11 00:46
奇能异事只能说明有外在力量作用。
经文讲过保罗也曾遇到过那个有异能的女童。众人因为她的异能，开始献祭 ...

世界上所谓上帝的”神迹“，”圣灵“之类，也是同一道理而已，所谓上帝，本身就只是一个灵，敢来到意志坚定的人面前，一样一吼就散，所谓的全能全知，主要是人在相互忽悠而已

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-11 17:43:42

bintoo 发表于 2014-7-11 08:19
世界上所谓上帝的”神迹“，”圣灵“之类，也是同一道理而已，所谓上帝，本身就只是一个灵，敢来到意志 ...

细胞核基因和病毒基因是有区别的。

作者: bintoo 时间: 2014-7-11 17:51:08

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-11 16:43
细胞核基因和病毒基因是有区别的。

如何区别呢？如何得知基因不会相互转化结合呢？如果得知我们认为的细胞核基因其实不是病毒基因假冒的呢？

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-11 17:56:09

bintoo 发表于 2014-7-11 16:51
如何区别呢？如何得知基因不会相互转化结合呢？如果得知我们认为的细胞核基因其实不是病毒基因假冒的呢？ ...

因为人的感官有限，只能用哲学的服强依常的理论来觉察。

如忏悔录中，奥古斯丁说过的很重要的一句话：我内心最深处，我相信你绝对公义，完全圣洁，始终如一。为什么呢？我不知道自己怎么知道，也不知道为什么。然而我却可以毫无疑问地看到，不义难比公义，圣洁胜过不洁，不变的总是比那变幻的可信。

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-11 17:56:50

bintoo 发表于 2014-7-11 16:51
如何区别呢？如何得知基因不会相互转化结合呢？如果得知我们认为的细胞核基因其实不是病毒基因假冒的呢？ ...

观察来的是可能是假象，但是造成的结果是有说服力的。

作者: bintoo 时间: 2014-7-11 18:03:23

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-11 16:56
观察来的是可能是假象，但是造成的结果是有说服力的。

一个信字，最终还是来之于个人感知而已，面对造成的结果，每个人看法不一。感知不一，正邪难定，又何来说服力呢？普通人认知于感知非常有限，要骗过，并非难事。

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-11 18:35:03

bintoo 发表于 2014-7-11 17:03
一个信字，最终还是来之于个人感知而已，面对造成的结果，每个人看法不一。感知不一，正邪难定，又何来说 ...

任何信都是必须有理由的，哪怕最荒谬的理由也必须存在。

有些感知和结果是不分文化人群的。
人最向往的是生命。烈火召飞蛾，生命聚人群。

作者: bintoo 时间: 2014-7-11 19:07:34

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-11 17:35
任何信都是必须有理由的，哪怕最荒谬的理由也必须存在。

有些感知和结果是不分文化人群的。

感知基于灵感，知识，经验的综合，错误的知识和经验直接影响对世界的感知，和对是非正邪的判断。更加不用说一个信字了，

火能带来光明温暖，也能带来毁灭死亡，飞蛾就是因为之知其一，才会麻木追逐火花，自取灭亡。

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-11 19:11:15

bintoo 发表于 2014-7-11 18:07
感知基于灵感，知识，经验的综合，错误的知识和经验直接影响对世界的感知，和对是非正邪的判断。更加不用 ...

你说的是信息传递媒介。
但是不论任何人口，基本需求近乎相同。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-11 19:52:04

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-11 18:11
你说的是信息传递媒介。
但是不论任何人口，基本需求近乎相同。

人跟动物一样…基本需求近乎相同…

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-12 02:18:36

lychee 发表于 2014-7-11 18:52
人跟动物一样…基本需求近乎相同…

此言差矣。
看看动物一天怎么打发 24 小时。人呢？

作者: 鸭嘴石斑鱼 时间: 2014-7-12 13:11:53

几乎都是遗传学和心理学方面的东西吧。。。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-12 13:26:16

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-12 01:18
此言差矣。
看看动物一天怎么打发 24 小时。人呢？

人也可以躺一天啊……
人为生活奔波动物就没有嘛？
人有七情六欲动物就没有嘛？

作者: Zealandhua 时间: 2014-7-12 14:20:55

某人说了某事, 他是教授, 博士,就一定是事实吗? 科学要证据,可以重复试验,可以在不同研究中冲复的证据!!! 现在有很多博士教授变得"神神叨叨",他们已经脱离科学而拥抱神学,别以为他们是科学家.

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-12 16:21:30

lychee 发表于 2014-7-12 12:26
人也可以躺一天啊……
人为生活奔波动物就没有嘛？
人有七情六欲动物就没有嘛？

所以常言说，大鹏有些时候飞得比燕雀、小蝉还要低。只是燕雀、小蝉永远飞不了大鹏的高度。
人可以用赐予他们的时间，创造宇宙最美好，最有意义的事。同时也可以打破你说的七情六欲，做很多非常规的事情，这些事情有善有恶。且人不论多么麻木，依然有价值观，有行为规律。

除了晚期智人之外，没有任何一个物种能达到甚至相近的程度。为什么呢？
那就是因为伊罗欣创造人类在第六天。

作者: carter 时间: 2014-7-12 17:33:02

提示: 作者被禁止或删除内容自动屏蔽

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-12 21:40:12

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-12 15:21
所以常言说，大鹏有些时候飞得比燕雀、小蝉还要低。只是燕雀、小蝉永远飞不了大鹏的高度。
人可以用赐予 ...

你这拽文拽的太严重了吧……还好我听过elohim…不然又卡壳了……
我看唯一高一点的是动物不会写字而已…
并不是飞的高才有存在的价值嘛…只不过是good at different things..

物竟天择适者生存…人跟动物都是一样的…你有凭什么说人就比动物高等嘞…
话说我问一句哦…据说天主教是耶稣门徒创立的…那基督教分裂出来怎么认定自己是真理哇？

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-12 21:50:12

lychee 发表于 2014-7-12 20:40
你这拽文拽的太严重了吧……还好我听过elohim…不然又卡壳了……
我看唯一高一点的是动物不会写字而已… ...

你继续这么坚持无理的观点就没意思了。
人到现在已经威胁了很多物种的生存，甚至人需要让步对他们进行保护了。你是否认为动物有一天需要对人类让步而保持人类的延续呢？

我重复一下，人可以选择退步，把自己变得像动物一样。但是动物永远不能达到甚至接近人的程度。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-12 21:53:35

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-12 20:50
你继续这么坚持无理的观点就没意思了。
人到现在已经威胁了很多物种的生存，甚至人需要让步对他们进行保 ...

那恐龙存在的时候还没有人类呢……
你比我清楚哇……

作者: 鹬鸵圣者 时间: 2014-7-12 21:56:18

lychee 发表于 2014-7-12 20:53
那恐龙存在的时候还没有人类呢……
你比我清楚哇……

你总算开始肯定我的话了，伊罗欣六日造人，万物之末，万物之精。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-12 22:01:44

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-12 20:56
你总算开始肯定我的话了，伊罗欣六日造人，万物之末，万物之精。

嘿嘿…给你绕进去了…

好吧好吧…人是万物之灵…我也不否定…就等哪天外星人出现嘲笑咱吧……

不过你这七日论对不上号哇…

我是可以理解你学地质学到最后发现人类的渺小以及造物主的伟大…
但是我不能理解你为什么会信基督…圣经根本就没有逻辑性的善存在…
相比来说我还能理解下佛教和道教的理论…玄学也是很值得研究…不过我得补补数学先……

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-7-12 22:05:41

鹬鸵圣者发表于 2014-7-12 20:56
你总算开始肯定我的话了，伊罗欣六日造人，万物之末，万物之精。

可能因为佛教和道教没有造物主……

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