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标题: FML，什么母亲会眼睁睁看着自己的儿子病死而不救？ [打印本页]

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-17 22:25:20 标题: FML，什么母亲会眼睁睁看着自己的儿子病死而不救？

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 18:41 编辑

原文链接

Catherine and Herbert Schaible是虔诚的基督教教徒，他们的教会讲究神圣治疗。他们的神父说只要你祈祷得够虔诚，你就可以治好所有病。他们的儿子Kent，在2009年的了肺炎，这对夫妇非但没有把他们的孩子带去医院治疗，更没有提供任何药物。他们做的只是祈祷，经过了2个星期的高烧折磨，Kent终于死于肺炎。这对夫妇被判非属意谋杀和10年的缓刑和得到保释。2013年，这对夫妇再次没有让他们的7个月儿子Brandon得到治疗而死去。这对夫妇被判3级谋杀。

题外话，有人说有样事情是可以每年减少320美国人死亡并且让美国人得到更好的医疗服务。这不是神耶和华，而是全民医疗保险。但是，反对全民医疗保险最热烈的组织确是基督教会。

作者: wellington2005 时间: 2014-6-17 22:37:20

提示: 作者被禁止或删除内容自动屏蔽

作者: Conax 时间: 2014-6-17 22:38:39

那是少數的「基督教會」，可稱之為異端或極端

大多數的基督教會乃正派的教會早就知道上帝不叫人拒絕醫生
況且不少醫生也是基督徒哇

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-17 22:42:10

Conax 发表于 2014-6-17 21:38
那是少數的「基督教會」，可稱之為異端或極端

大多數的基督教會乃正派的教會早就知道上帝不叫人拒絕醫生 ...

少数？你跟被弄死的孩子说，一个无辜孩子的死去都太多。

还有，多少孩童被天主教的教父强奸？

作者: NewLynnHse 时间: 2014-6-17 22:43:50

我很想知道Benny Hinn是不是真的有特异功能
http://www.youtube.com/v/FB97hq4alKA

作者: Conax 时间: 2014-6-17 22:46:38

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-17 21:42
少数？你跟被弄死的孩子说，一个无辜孩子的死去都太多。

还有，多少孩童被天主教的教父强奸？

你說哪個組織沒有敗類?

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-17 22:50:22

Conax 发表于 2014-6-17 21:46
你說哪個組織沒有敗類?

只有宗教组织以神为借口犯罪。

作者: dinc198964 时间: 2014-6-18 02:59:08

本帖最后由 dinc198964 于 2014-6-18 02:05 编辑

[quote]lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-17 21:50
只有宗教组织以神为借口犯罪。
人性使然

作者: karissah 时间: 2014-6-18 03:41:16

是我看错了么..
全民医疗只减少320个死亡人数???

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 09:15:34

怪不得港哥这么愤慨…小红莓都请出来了……

作者: Clark1129 时间: 2014-6-18 09:51:46

又开始了，翻翻数据，犯罪走极端的人群里，教徒和不信教的比例多少？中国还有很多报复社会砍小学生的，都是教徒么？以偏概全断章取义实在没什么意思

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 10:16:09

Clark1129 发表于 2014-6-18 08:51
又开始了，翻翻数据，犯罪走极端的人群里，教徒和不信教的比例多少？中国还有很多报复社会砍小学生的，都是 ...

呵呵，说得对啊。任何社会和族群都有害群之马。不过是因为宗教，所以让大家更关注而已。就好像别人强奸个女人，报道两天，讨论两天就没事了，而李双江的儿子强奸女人，被讨论了多久啊？

其实我之前就提醒过楼主，要摆事实讲证据，以理服人，但如果你真的想让别人心服口服，你至少要了解基督教到底是什么。所以，如果楼主想要真正的做到你所说的，让基督徒们都不敢张嘴说自己是基督徒，那你其实应该从圣经着手，因为你说的这些东西，教父强奸孩子之类的，我们一定会反驳说，这只是少类人，基督徒也有坏人。

如果你真的那么想反驳基督徒，从根本上动摇一个基督徒的思想，那么我建议你通读圣经，并且认真了解和理解圣经，从圣经中找出不合理，矛盾，和不对的地方，这样才有说服力

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 15:33:12

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 09:16
呵呵，说得对啊。任何社会和族群都有害群之马。不过是因为宗教，所以让大家更关注而已。就好像别人强奸个 ...

问题是宗教的存在就是应该遏制这种事情的发生…
但是反而给了他们作恶的机会…历史上多少次以上帝之名发起的战争？多少人无辜含冤而死…

楼主这种人不在少数…我很好奇那些说楼主偏激的…没见过洋人无神论者是怎么样的吗？我觉得只要没去炸教堂…所有的言论都应该是不受限制的…如果有人觉得他说的不对尽可以指正…

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 15:55:04

Clark1129 发表于 2014-6-18 08:51
又开始了，翻翻数据，犯罪走极端的人群里，教徒和不信教的比例多少？中国还有很多报复社会砍小学生的，都是 ...

我觉得小时候学的思想品德啥的还是好的

不过上梁不正下梁容易歪罢了……

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 17:04:20

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 14:33
问题是宗教的存在就是应该遏制这种事情的发生…
但是反而给了他们作恶的机会…历史上多少次以上帝之名发 ...

言论自由是建立在讲事实讲道理并且互相尊重的基础上。否则不叫言论自由，只能叫人身攻击。而且我认为言论自由也要看目的是什么。如果目的只是为了攻击他人，满足自己的欲望，那我认为不可取。但如果是为了发表自己的观点看法，或者为某些事情鸣不平，那我认为这是值得赞赏的。你说得对，历史上有很多因宗教而起的战争，但发起者都没什么好下场。换个角度想，历史上不因为宗教的战争其实也不少。所以我认为，信与不信，都是人的自由选择，互相攻击实在没有必要。

作者: Philip_J._Fry 时间: 2014-6-18 17:26:51

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-17 21:50
只有宗教组织以神为借口犯罪。

1）用一个具体的例子来阐述观点是有效的，但是用一个具体的例子来证明观点的正确性就无效了。
2）宗教组织中的败类以神为借口犯罪，难道不正常吗？就像演艺圈的败类以艺术为借口犯罪，学术界的败类以科学为借口犯罪，政治界的败类以人民利益为借口犯罪。这难道有任何一点点不正常的地方吗？

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 17:37:07

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 16:04
言论自由是建立在讲事实讲道理并且互相尊重的基础上。否则不叫言论自由，只能叫人身攻击。而且我认为言论 ...

我的重点是…如果宗教不能导人向善的话…那还有什么存在的意义？

就好像你个农民偷了钱个一个警察偷了钱…哪个更值得批判？

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 17:37:55

Philip_J._Fry 发表于 2014-6-18 16:26
1）用一个具体的例子来阐述观点是有效的，但是用一个具体的例子来证明观点的正确性就无效了。
2）宗教组 ...

你认为这些都是正常的可以接受的吗？

作者: Philip_J._Fry 时间: 2014-6-18 17:41:25

本帖最后由 Philip_J._Fry 于 2014-6-18 16:42 编辑

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 16:37
你认为这些都是正常的可以接受的吗？

是否正常和是否可以接受与我回贴中阐述的问题完全是不相关的。我阐述的观点是宗教界的败类以神的名义干坏事是正常的。而不是说他们干坏事是正常的。

作者: 心无止境 时间: 2014-6-18 17:43:16

个人觉得基督教还好，只是穆斯林还有非洲的那种种族矛盾太邪恶了

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 17:44:33

Philip_J._Fry 发表于 2014-6-18 16:41
是否正常和是否可以接受与我回贴中阐述的问题完全是不相关的。我阐述的观点是宗教界的败类以神的名义干 ...

所以我们都要反对不是咩？
难道就看着他们这样利用职务之便夺人尊严哇？

作者: Philip_J._Fry 时间: 2014-6-18 17:46:30

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 16:44
所以我们都要反对不是咩？
难道就看着他们这样利用职务之便夺人尊严哇？

你又再说完全不想关的事情了。我说的是 lzhizhao 用“只有宗教组织以神为借口犯罪”来反对宗教是站不住脚的。至于反不反对宗教，和我的回帖完全无关。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 17:48:30

Philip_J._Fry 发表于 2014-6-18 16:46
你又再说完全不想关的事情了。我说的是 lzhizhao 用“只有宗教组织以神为借口犯罪”来反对宗教是站不住脚 ...

他好像没说只有吧？

宗教比较严重而已…

作者: Philip_J._Fry 时间: 2014-6-18 17:51:19

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 16:48
他好像没说只有吧？

宗教比较严重而已…

作者: lizanqq 时间: 2014-6-18 17:57:18

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 09:16
呵呵，说得对啊。任何社会和族群都有害群之马。不过是因为宗教，所以让大家更关注而已。就好像别人强奸个 ...

李双江的儿子强奸女人被讨论了很久很久很久起码一年以上

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 18:56:38

Philip_J._Fry 发表于 2014-6-18 16:51

哈哈…这样哇…那你接着说…

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 18:58:57

dinc198964 发表于 2014-6-18 01:59
[quote]lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-17 21:50
只有宗教组织以神为借口犯罪。
人性使然

当宗教做坏事的时候你们说是人性，当宗教做好事的时候你们说是神的旨意。所以，加入了宗教，人性就自然变坏了period

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 18:59:37

karissah 发表于 2014-6-18 02:41
是我看错了么..
全民医疗只减少320个死亡人数???

我查的数据，但是除了减少死亡，还有很多其他好处，比如减少非致命疾病的痛苦。

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 19:05:14

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 16:37
我的重点是…如果宗教不能导人向善的话…那还有什么存在的意义？

就好像你个农民偷了钱个一个警察偷了 ...

那你的意思是，宗教信仰的人犯了错就该死，没信仰的人犯了错就可以原谅吗？所有人都应该平等的被对待，道德绑架别人的人本身自己就不道德。换个角度讲，宗教本身就是导人向善的，不过是某些个别人或组织滥用了。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 19:05:23

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 18:21 编辑

Clark1129 发表于 2014-6-18 08:51
又开始了，翻翻数据，犯罪走极端的人群里，教徒和不信教的比例多少？中国还有很多报复社会砍小学生的，都是 ...

ok，你又说我走极端了。我有说其他教徒都是这样么？我只说了，这对夫妇因为相信了宗教所以才这样。

你说我走极端，我说个真实的故事：在伊斯兰的某个国家，一个父亲在白日之下，众目之中用石头砸死他没满16岁的女儿。原因是他女儿给一个男生写了封情书，父亲是非常相信伊斯兰教的教徒，父亲觉得女儿的行为有辱神灵。结果，当地法律把这个事情定义为宗教行为而没有对那个父亲判刑。这种事情在伊斯兰国度是经常发生的。

你问我没有宗教我们会不会干其他残暴的事情，我答案是会。但是没有了宗教，我们就没有了以宗教为名义的残暴行为。那对父母要是不信神圣治疗，这两个孩子就不会死，当然咯中国砍学生的事情还会发生。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 19:07:34

Philip_J._Fry 发表于 2014-6-18 16:41
是否正常和是否可以接受与我回贴中阐述的问题完全是不相关的。我阐述的观点是宗教界的败类以神的名义干 ...

那我问你如果没有了神圣治疗的说法，这对父母会不会让孩子病死？假设这对父母的人格并没有改变。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 19:08:14

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 16:04
言论自由是建立在讲事实讲道理并且互相尊重的基础上。否则不叫言论自由，只能叫人身攻击。而且我认为言论 ...

请问你对同性恋的看法。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 19:35:47

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 18:05
那你的意思是，宗教信仰的人犯了错就该死，没信仰的人犯了错就可以原谅吗？所有人都应该平等的被对待，道 ...

我的意思是如果宗教不能导人向善的话…就没有存在的意义…

但是你觉得宗教都是导人向善的…这句话本身就不对…我就不举什么反例证明了…不过我想让你知道…亚伯拉罕诸教的教义完全不是导人向善的…
对于教徒来说…信奉上帝为首要职责…其次才是所谓的道德…所以才会有做错了事没关系…去忏悔上帝就原谅你了…这样荒谬的事你怎么解释？

再来就是人人平等…你觉得那些圣经教派有人人平等吗？先不说教徒人人以高尚自居…宗教内部也是等级森严…尤其是天主教…我唯一听说倡导人人平等的是路德宗…你信哪个的？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 19:39:00

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 18:40 编辑

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 18:35
我的意思是如果宗教不能导人向善的话…就没有存在的意义…

但是你觉得宗教都是导人向善的…这句话本身 ...

各种宗教里面对女人的地位也是抵如货物。圣经的十诫里面其中一戒就是把女人和财产划分为一起的。可兰经里面女人更是男人的性工具和奴隶。
宗教，想说爱你不容易啊

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 19:40:24

lizanqq 发表于 2014-6-18 16:57
李双江的儿子强奸女人被讨论了很久很久很久起码一年以上

你看到图没啊？

我一发图你就没回音…你是想压碎我这玻璃心还是咋滴？

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 19:41:19

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 18:08
请问你对同性恋的看法。

我老板就是同性恋。她也是我的好朋友。我不赞同同性恋，但是却不排斥跟他们接触因为同性恋是一种罪，但是撒谎也是，我能说我一辈子没撒过慌吗？不能。所以我没资格批评他们。因为他们是罪人，我也是罪人。以前我刚信主的时候很不喜欢同性恋，认为他们脏，他们恶心，我应该远离他们。可这几年，我学会了一件事，就是我们都是罪人，只是罪恶不同而已。五十步怎么能笑百步呢。同性恋法律通过的时候我极力反对，但是我从来没有攻击过我身边的同性恋。所以你问我对同性恋的态度，那就是我反对，但不排斥是同性恋的人。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 19:47:28

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 18:55 编辑

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 18:41
我老板就是同性恋。她也是我的好朋友。我不赞同同性恋，但是却不排斥跟他们接触因为同性恋是一种罪，但是 ...

为什么你反对同性恋婚姻合法化，为什么你说同性恋是罪？我说同性恋是自然的行为，如果真要说错，那也是神创造的。为什么同性恋者不可以得到他们的幸福？为什么你们要以你们的道德观来批判别人。如果我们生来平等，为什么你的婚姻可以合法，他们的婚姻不可以合法？

还有，我从来不认为自己是罪人，请你把人类是罪人的看法保留在你自己的看法里。我是不是罪人是法律来定的，我从来没做过任何坏事我没有理由去担当罪人的名义。因为你相信了宗教，所以给全世界的人都是罪人的想法是非常荒谬和不道德的行为。西方法律里面明文写得：guilt until proven.没有被定罪的都不是罪人。

为什么神要给人民定罪，因为这样可以恐吓人民和以罪名来贬低人民。从而更好的让人民服从那个邪恶的神。religion is base on fear and submission, period

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 19:52:16

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 18:41
我老板就是同性恋。她也是我的好朋友。我不赞同同性恋，但是却不排斥跟他们接触因为同性恋是一种罪，但是 ...

我不知道你的道德观是怎么样的。

在我的道德观里：阻碍别人追求的他们自己的幸福是非常不道德的行为。

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 21:06:33

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 18:47
为什么你反对同性恋婚姻合法化，为什么你说同性恋是罪？我说同性恋是自然的行为，如果真要说错，那也是神 ...

我说了，这是我的看法，你要怎么看是你的自由，我没有要求你要跟我一样，那也请你不要要求我要跟你一样。几就这么简单t。

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 21:09:36

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 18:52
我不知道你的道德观是怎么样的。

在我的道德观里：阻碍别人追求的他们自己的幸福是非常不道德的行为。

而且，同性恋不是神创造的。所以我才说，当你要反对一个宗教也好，一个观点也好，要先完全的了解它。否则没有说服力的。所以我才让你去了解圣经，否则你的反驳观点都没办法说服基督徒。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 21:10:02

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:06
我说了，这是我的看法，你要怎么看是你的自由，我没有要求你要跟我一样，那也请你不要要求我要跟你一样。 ...

当然咯，只是你的想法我是不想干预。我批评的是宗教这种强制于他人的道德观，显然，你也没有否认强制别人得不到幸福是非常不道德的说法。不过，你既然不否定，而且毫无悔念的保留这种道德观。。。。。。。。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 21:11:20

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:09
而且，同性恋不是神创造的。所以我才说，当你要反对一个宗教也好，一个观点也好，要先完全的了解它。否则 ...

你怎么证明同性恋不是神创造的？神不是法力无边么？神怎么不一挥手指让这些同性恋者不再同性恋？

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 21:36:26

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:09
而且，同性恋不是神创造的。所以我才说，当你要反对一个宗教也好，一个观点也好，要先完全的了解它。否则 ...

对。。同性恋不是神创造的。。是神反对的。。
怪了。。为什么神不反对奴隶制呢？

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 21:42:47

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 20:10
当然咯，只是你的想法我是不想干预。我批评的是宗教这种强制于他人的道德观，显然，你也没有否认强制别人 ...

呵呵，我问你，你说不阻止别人追求幸福才是道德，那如果今天有个人告诉你，我就是要杀人我才幸福，你让他杀吗？如果不让，那你是不是就是在阻止他人追求幸福了呢？如果你觉得这个比较极端，那如果今天你老婆说我要跟别的男人上床才幸福，那你让她去吗？你不让是不是就不道德了？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 21:43:44

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:42
呵呵，我问你，你说不阻止别人追求幸福才是道德，那如果今天有个人告诉你，我就是要杀人我才幸福，你让他 ...

那我问你同性恋的人要结婚，会伤害到你或者其他人么？

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 21:44:15

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 20:11
你怎么证明同性恋不是神创造的？神不是法力无边么？神怎么不一挥手指让这些同性恋者不再同性恋？

所以才让你去看圣经啊，这些问题圣经上全有解释的

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 21:46:06

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 21:03 编辑

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 20:36
对。。同性恋不是神创造的。。是神反对的。。
怪了。。为什么神不反对奴隶制呢？

你怎么知道同性恋不是神创造的？因为神口头反对了？圣经哪里反对同性恋了？

你怎么不知道神其实是个同性恋者？否则他为什么这么迷恋foreskin?和这么迷恋切掉包皮的完美男性器官？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 21:47:21

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:44
所以才让你去看圣经啊，这些问题圣经上全有解释的

你怎么知道我没看?请你指出圣经哪里说反对同性恋了？我是没找到。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 21:48:56

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 20:46
你怎么知道同性恋不是神创造的？因为神口头反对了？圣经哪里反对同性恋了？

你怎么知道神其实是个同性 ...

我找给你

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 21:51:23

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:44
所以才让你去看圣经啊，这些问题圣经上全有解释的

【利20:13-16】人若与男人苟合，像与女人一样，他们二人行了可憎的事，总要把他们治死，罪要归到他们身上。......人若与兽淫合，总要治死他，也要杀那兽。女人若与兽亲近，与它淫合，你要杀那女人和那兽，总要把他们治死，罪要归到他们身上。
【罗1:26-27】因此，神任凭他们放纵可羞耻的情欲。他们的女人把顺性的用处变为逆性的用处；男人也是如此，弃了女人顺性的用处，欲火攻心，彼此贪恋，男和男行可羞耻的事，就在自己身上受这妄为当得的报应。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 21:55:58

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 20:47
你怎么知道我没看?请你指出圣经哪里说反对同性恋了？我是没找到。

我想起那英国佬两次酒后强x同一匹马，。。。十恶不赦哇。。。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 21:56:33

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 20:51
【利20:13-16】人若与男人苟合，像与女人一样，他们二人行了可憎的事，总要把他们治死，罪要归到他们身上 ...

给我英文原文的。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 22:03:02

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 20:56
给我英文原文的。

Leviticus 18:22: Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: if a man also lie with mankind, as he lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:26-27: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 22:05:37

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 21:03
Leviticus 18:22: Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Levitic ...

说的是不可以睡一起，有说不可以结婚么？而且，他们lie with mankind的时候做得是根本不同lie with womankind的事情。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 22:13:35

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 21:05
说的是不可以睡一起，有说不可以结婚么？而且，他们lie with mankind的时候做得是根本不同lie with woman ...

不可以睡一起还结个毛婚。。。。婚姻是要上帝批准的。。。。.

后面那句没看懂

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 22:14:39

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 21:15 编辑

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 21:13
不可以睡一起还结个毛婚。。。。婚姻是要上帝批准的。。。。.

后面那句没看懂

你知道站着和坐着也可以做么？做完后各自回去睡自己的床。

神可以在空中飘浮着做。

可以创造出无数体位。

作者: lychee 时间: 2014-6-18 22:17:15

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 21:14
你知道站着和坐着也可以做么？做完后各自回去睡自己的床。
神可以在空中飘浮着做。可以创造出无 ...

....................

。。。你去研究印度教吧。。。。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 22:17:25

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 21:13
不可以睡一起还结个毛婚。。。。婚姻是要上帝批准的。。。。.

后面那句没看懂

我们看看圣经多少次提到不准吃海鲜，我看教徒们全部都犯戒了：

Leviticus 11:10 ESV / 91 helpful votes

But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you.

Leviticus 11:9 ESV / 91 helpful votes

“These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV / 38 helpful votes

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Genesis 9:3 ESV / 34 helpful votes

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything.

Leviticus 11:9-12 ESV / 29 helpful votes

“These you may eat, of all that are in the waters. Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat. But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is detestable to you. You shall regard them as detestable; you shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is detestable to you.

Leviticus 11:1-47 ESV / 27 helpful votes

And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you.

Hebrews 8:13 ESV / 17 helpful votes

In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Mark 7:19 ESV / 14 helpful votes

Since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Deuteronomy 14:1-29 ESV / 12 helpful votes

“You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. “You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep.

1 Corinthians 10:31 ESV / 9 helpful votes

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Romans 14:14 ESV / 9 helpful votes

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Leviticus 19:19 ESV / 9 helpful votes

“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind. You shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor shall you wear a garment of cloth made of two kinds of material.

Leviticus 11:3 ESV / 9 helpful votes

Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat.

Genesis 1:29 ESV / 9 helpful votes

And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

Romans 12:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

2 Corinthians 6:17-18 ESV / 5 helpful votes

Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”

2 Corinthians 3:1-18 ESV / 5 helpful votes

Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God,

Romans 7:14 ESV / 5 helpful votes

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

Mark 7:1-37 ESV / 5 helpful votes

Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”

Matthew 4:4 ESV / 5 helpful votes

But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

Deuteronomy 28:1-68 ESV / 5 helpful votes

“And if you faithfully obey the voice of the Lord your God, being careful to do all his commandments that I command you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of the Lord your God. Blessed shall you be in the city, and blessed shall you be in the field. Blessed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground and the fruit of your cattle, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. Blessed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.

Genesis 9:1-29 ESV / 5 helpful votes

And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

Ephesians 2:8 ESV / 4 helpful votes

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 Corinthians 10:1-33 ESV / 4 helpful votes

For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 6:9 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Romans 8:4 ESV / 4 helpful votes

In order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Matthew 23:23 ESV / 4 helpful votes

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.

Daniel 1:1-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes

In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with some of the vessels of the house of God. And he brought them to the land of Shinar, to the house of his god, and placed the vessels in the treasury of his god. Then the king commanded Ashpenaz, his chief eunuch, to bring some of the people of Israel, both of the royal family and of the nobility, youths without blemish, of good appearance and skillful in all wisdom, endowed with knowledge, understanding learning, and competent to stand in the king's palace, and to teach them the literature and language of the Chaldeans. The king assigned them a daily portion of the food that the king ate, and of the wine that he drank. They were to be educated for three years, and at the end of that time they were to stand before the king.

Isaiah 66:15-17 ESV / 4 helpful votes

“For behold, the Lord will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire will the Lord enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the Lord shall be many. “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.

1 Kings 1:1-53 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Now King David was old and advanced in years. And although they covered him with clothes, he could not get warm. Therefore his servants said to him, “Let a young woman be sought for my lord the king, and let her wait on the king and be in his service. Let her lie in your arms, that my lord the king may be warm.” So they sought for a beautiful young woman throughout all the territory of Israel, and found Abishag the Shunammite, and brought her to the king. The young woman was very beautiful, and she was of service to the king and attended to him, but the king knew her not. Now Adonijah the son of Haggith exalted himself, saying, “I will be king.” And he prepared for himself chariots and horsemen, and fifty men to run before him.

Leviticus 20:9 ESV / 4 helpful votes

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Leviticus 11:11 ESV / 4 helpful votes

You shall regard them as detestable; you shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall detest their carcasses.

Exodus 12:1-51 ESV / 4 helpful votes

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, “This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you. Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household. And if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his nearest neighbor shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats,

Genesis 7:2 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate,

Genesis 7:1-24 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth. For in seven days I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.” And Noah did all that the Lord had commanded him.

Genesis 3:17-19 ESV / 4 helpful votes

And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Hebrews 13:8 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Hebrews 7:12 ESV / 3 helpful votes

For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Colossians 4:4-6 ESV / 3 helpful votes

That I may make it clear, which is how I ought to speak. Walk in wisdom toward outsiders, making the best use of the time. Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

1 Corinthians 6:15-20 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 12:2 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Acts 10:14 ESV / 3 helpful votes

But Peter said, “By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean.”

Matthew 5:17-18 ESV / 3 helpful votes

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 5:17 ESV / 3 helpful votes

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Ezekiel 44:23 ESV / 3 helpful votes

They shall teach my people the difference between the holy and the common, and show them how to distinguish between the unclean and the clean.

Jeremiah 10:23 ESV / 3 helpful votes

I know, O Lord, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

Isaiah 55:8-9 ESV / 3 helpful votes

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Isaiah 1:18 ESV / 3 helpful votes

“Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.

Psalm 90:2 ESV / 3 helpful votes

Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

Leviticus 20:13 ESV / 3 helpful votes

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Leviticus 19:28 ESV / 3 helpful votes

You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves: I am the Lord.

Leviticus 19:27 ESV / 3 helpful votes

You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

Leviticus 11:20 ESV / 3 helpful votes

“All winged insects that go on all fours are detestable to you.

Leviticus 7:23-24 ESV / 3 helpful votes

“Speak to the people of Israel, saying, You shall eat no fat, of ox or sheep or goat. The fat of an animal that dies of itself and the fat of one that is torn by beasts may be put to any other use, but on no account shall you eat it.

Exodus 23:25-33 ESV / 3 helpful votes

You shall serve the Lord your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you. None shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days. I will send my terror before you and will throw into confusion all the people against whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivites, the Canaanites, and the Hittites from before you. I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the wild beasts multiply against you.

Exodus 16:23 ESV / 3 helpful votes

He said to them, “This is what the Lord has commanded: ‘Tomorrow is a day of solemn rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord; bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over lay aside to be kept till the morning.’”

Exodus 12:41 ESV / 3 helpful votes

At the end of 430 years, on that very day, all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.

Genesis 6:19-7:2 ESV / 3 helpful votes

And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every sort into the ark to keep them alive with you. They shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground, according to its kind, two of every sort shall come in to you to keep them alive. Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up. It shall serve as food for you and for them.” Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him. Then the Lord said to Noah, “Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you are righteous before me in this generation.

Genesis 1:30 ESV / 3 helpful votes

And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

James 2:23 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God.

Hebrews 8:8 ESV / 2 helpful votes

For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

Hebrews 7:11-14 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

1 Timothy 4:8 ESV / 2 helpful votes

For while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

Ephesians 1:4 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

1 Corinthians 12:5 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

Romans 6:22-23 ESV / 2 helpful votes

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 4:11 ESV / 2 helpful votes

He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,

Acts 10:1-48 ESV / 2 helpful votes

At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter.

John 14:15 ESV / 2 helpful votes

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Matthew 15:1-39 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.” He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,”

Matthew 7:21 ESV / 2 helpful votes

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes

For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Malachi 3:6 ESV / 2 helpful votes

“For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Daniel 1:18-20 ESV / 2 helpful votes

At the end of the time, when the king had commanded that they should be brought in, the chief of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. And the king spoke with them, and among all of them none was found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. Therefore they stood before the king. And in every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters that were in all his kingdom.

Deuteronomy 33:27 ESV / 2 helpful votes

The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you and said, Destroy.

Deuteronomy 8:3 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.

Leviticus 11:1-30 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these: The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you.

Exodus 21:1-23:33 ESV / 2 helpful votes

“Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’

Exodus 20:1-26 ESV / 2 helpful votes

And God spoke all these words, saying, “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Exodus 19:1 ESV / 2 helpful votes

On the third new moon after the people of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

Genesis 26:5 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

Genesis 19:1-38 ESV / 2 helpful votes

The two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed himself with his face to the earth and said, “My lords, please turn aside to your servant's house and spend the night and wash your feet. Then you may rise up early and go on your way.” They said, “No; we will spend the night in the town square.” But he pressed them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house. And he made them a feast and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them.”

Genesis 1:26-27 ESV / 2 helpful votes

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 22:21:00

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 20:44
所以才让你去看圣经啊，这些问题圣经上全有解释的

你和你家人吃海鲜了么？我才发现圣经里面84次提到不可以吃海鲜。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 22:28:21

lychee 发表于 2014-6-18 21:17
....................

。。。你去研究印度教吧。。。。

圣经严格来说只有2处提到同性恋，但是84处提到不允许吃海鲜。那么其实神对同性恋者比我们想像的还要非常仁慈。讨厌的是那些信徒一边吃着海鲜一边说同性恋是罪。

作者: winny 时间: 2014-6-18 22:40:47

{:8_491:}

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 22:42:45

winny 发表于 2014-6-18 21:40

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 23:09:58

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 20:43
那我问你同性恋的人要结婚，会伤害到你或者其他人么？

伤害并不是身体上的，更多的是心灵上的。我同性恋朋友曾经跟我分享，当他告诉他父母他要跟同性结婚的时候他们是多门的震惊和伤心。虽然他们最后选择了接受，但是却依然免不了伤害。这算不算是一种伤害呢？至于你说你看过圣经，呵呵，我非常确定你是在别人提了某一个议题以后上网google一下相关章节，而并没有通读全篇。因为如果你有通读，你就不会在上一个帖子说，好人上天堂，坏人下地狱，你也就会明白，圣经不管是新约时代还是旧约时代就是反同性恋的，而在新约时代，神已经洁净了所有的食物，准许信徒从旧约时代的不准吃血，猪肉，带壳类动物变成可以吃了。

你没有通读过圣经，我可以理解，因为毕竟没什么非基督徒会愿意花时间在读圣经上。不过你既然在之前的帖子里说你想要让基督徒不敢再说自己是基督徒，为自己是基督徒而感到羞愧，那么你真的要把圣经融会贯通地读一遍，否则没有说服力的。小小建议而已。我还是那句话，人都有自由思想，信与不信都是自己的选择，反正不是你错，就是我们错，等我们死的那天就知道啦~~~呵呵:)

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:18:16

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 22:20 编辑

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 22:09
伤害并不是身体上的，更多的是心灵上的。我同性恋朋友曾经跟我分享，当他告诉他父母他要跟同性结婚的时候 ...

这种伤害是旁人不接受的伤害，这种不接受对同性恋者的伤害更深。
我开始佩服写圣经的人，想得真周到。

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 23:22:53

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:18
这种伤害是旁人不接受的伤害，这种不接受对同性恋者的伤害更深。

可是那如果是老婆出轨呢？老公不接受是不是也是老婆更受伤害呢？因为老公不接受我重新有了真爱？

不过我还是觉得，我虽然不赞同同性恋，但并不代表我不接受他们。同性恋也可以是好人，好朋友，好同事，好家人。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:25:22

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 22:22
可是那如果是老婆出轨呢？老公不接受是不是也是老婆更受伤害呢？因为老公不接受我重新有了真爱？

不过 ...

那是个很好的问题，老婆出轨和同性恋婚姻有什么不同呢？让我想想。

对了我突然想到：穆斯林人不可以吃猪肉和其他没有被哈拉的肉，他们只要找个人写本新可兰经就是了。过几十年新可兰经就正当化了，他们就可以随便吃了。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:26:39

请弓箭哥指教一下，既然你举例了很多古代和现代宗教的不足。那反过来说，中国最近60多年来，是不信教的，那不足之处也有很多

所以我认为，极端反宗教不可取

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 23:27:59

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:25
那是个很好的问题，老婆出轨和同性恋婚姻有什么不同呢？让我想想。

对了我突然想到：穆斯林人不可以吃 ...

穆斯林的可兰经我不太了解，但是我的穆斯林朋友很多还是不吃猪肉的。他们认为猪肉是不洁净的。据他们说穆斯林后来也分为很多派系，有的可以吃猪肉，但正统的穆斯林还是不吃猪肉的

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:29:33

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:26
请弓箭哥指教一下，既然你举例了很多古代和现代宗教的不足。那反过来说，中国最近60多年来，是不信教的，那 ...

这是我之前给别人的回复，我就不重新写了：

我说个真实的故事：在伊斯兰的某个国家，一个父亲在白日之下，众目之中用石头砸死他没满16岁的女儿。原因是他女儿给一个男生写了封情书，父亲是非常相信伊斯兰教的教徒，父亲觉得女儿的行为有辱神灵。结果，当地法律把这个事情定义为宗教行为而没有对那个父亲判刑。这种事情在伊斯兰国度是经常发生的。

你问我没有宗教我们会不会干其他残暴的事情，我答案是会。但是没有了宗教，我们就没有了以宗教为名义的残暴行为。那对父母要是不信神圣治疗，这两个孩子就不会死，当然咯中国砍学生的事情还会发生。

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 23:30:42

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:26
请弓箭哥指教一下，既然你举例了很多古代和现代宗教的不足。那反过来说，中国最近60多年来，是不信教的，那 ...

我觉得你说的很对，太极端的宗教主义和太极端的反宗教主义都有可能引起战争。历史上因为宗教问题引起的战争大部分可能都是因为这个“极端”二字造成的

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:31:55

你问我没有宗教我们会不会干其他残暴的事情，我答案是会。但是没有了宗教，我们就没有了以宗教为名义的残暴行为

中国近60年来那些大运动，你能说它们不残暴吗？

作者: Dealter 时间: 2014-6-18 23:32:23

我已经跟不上你们的话题了...............

啊,我有家人是基督徒,我也不反对同性恋婚姻
整体来说我更是个无神论

作者: 寒栖 时间: 2014-6-18 23:32:40

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:29
这是我之前给别人的回复，我就不重新写了：

我说个真实的故事：在伊斯兰的某个国家，一个父亲在白日之 ...

其实你说的还是很客观的，我觉得你其实不是在反宗教，而是在反愚昧，因为圣经也从没教过人生病不看医生，或许是那一家信徒太极端或者太愚昧没能理解宗教的真正教义造成的吧。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:33:31

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:29
这是我之前给别人的回复，我就不重新写了：

我说个真实的故事：在伊斯兰的某个国家，一个父亲在白日之 ...

你上面举的仅仅是一个例子，一个人命

中国那些“大运动”，就只能用数字去表达

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:33:35

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:26
请弓箭哥指教一下，既然你举例了很多古代和现代宗教的不足。那反过来说，中国最近60多年来，是不信教的，那 ...

还有一点，反宗教的人一般反对的是宗教的残暴和洗脑，所以据我所知（my opinion）好像没有反宗教人士的恐怖主义。挪威好像有很多乐团是反宗教的，近10年里他们的歌词中杀信徒，烧教徒等词很少用了，不过他们只是唱歌的多真正干的好像么有（注意是好像，我不确定。）

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:34:39

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:33
你上面举的仅仅是一个例子，一个人命

中国那些“大运动”，就只能用数字去表达

不是一个人命，2013年里死了869个妇女。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:36:19

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 22:32
其实你说的还是很客观的，我觉得你其实不是在反宗教，而是在反愚昧，因为圣经也从没教过人生病不看医生， ...

愚昧的根源是对神的崇拜。一个说你只可以相信神的团体，任何事情都只能用神来解析。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:39:14

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:33
你上面举的仅仅是一个例子，一个人命

中国那些“大运动”，就只能用数字去表达

还有，我这只是一个例子，其余的例子还有：

近代的：911事件，各种恐怖袭击，天主教教主对孩童的性侵犯，乌干达屠杀，在非洲传染艾滋病等

历史上的就更多了。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:40:06

寒栖发表于 2014-6-18 22:32
其实你说的还是很客观的，我觉得你其实不是在反宗教，而是在反愚昧，因为圣经也从没教过人生病不看医生， ...

其实我觉得你也挺可观的，而且我说不过你

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:40:12

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:33
还有一点，反宗教的人一般反对的是宗教的残暴和洗脑，所以据我所知（my opinion）好像没有反宗教人士的恐 ...

你属于是反宗教的人吗?

我想说的是，中国不信教，或者反宗教的（占大多数），做的不比信宗教的好，出格的事也不少. 所以不要太过纠结于宗教问题，这世界很大，我们认识很少。

就像，你能举出信宗教不好的例子，我也能举出不信宗教，结局也不好的例子

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:43:56

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:39
还有，我这只是一个例子，其余的例子还有：

近代的：911事件，各种恐怖袭击，天主教教主对孩童的性侵犯 ...

对，我知道你有很多宗教方面很多不好例子

问题是，中国勉强算是不信教的，那些大活动（不好的例子），你难道就这么忽略了？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:44:14

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:40
你属于是反宗教的人吗?

我想说的是，中国不信教，或者反宗教的（占大多数），做的不比信宗教的好，出 ...

世界上的邪恶是很多的我们只能慢慢清除。

我这里借用别人的话，说这话的人是直面异义：

宗教和科学是完全对立的。没有并存关系。宗教的目的就在于：宣教者，通过这一宗教达到控制人思想。

那种把未知世界神秘化的观点只证明了一件事：政府对宗教的控制太松了。
宗教的邪恶是历史证明的。
信教者被挟裹着失去人性也一次一次的被证明。
今天的宗教势力很弱，他们以柔弱的一面示人。
在历史上何尝不是如此。然而一旦拥有权力，其狰狞、残暴远胜于任何世俗的独裁者。

至少我认为，对宗教的斗争，是人类思想是否能解放的关键点。人类社会是无法灭除宗教的，因为那是人类的邪恶一面，只有科学才能抗衡！

最后还是要向那些挑战宗教邪恶的人多少表示一的敬意。大家是同行者

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:45:06

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:40
你属于是反宗教的人吗?

我想说的是，中国不信教，或者反宗教的（占大多数），做的不比信宗教的好，出 ...

这是我之前说的：
就如美国的一对夫妻相信了基督教的神圣治疗而不让他们的两个患病儿子接受医院治疗，最后两个孩子读过2个星期的疾病折磨后死去。

Christophter Hitchen说：Good people try their best to do good things and bad people do bad things. To make good people do bad things? you only need religion.

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:46:42

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:40
你属于是反宗教的人吗?

我想说的是，中国不信教，或者反宗教的（占大多数），做的不比信宗教的好，出 ...

我是反宗教人士，我想问问你怎么区分反宗教和极端反宗教的？如果我在网上批评宗教和议论宗教的好坏算是极端反宗教么？还是要我背上炸药包去教堂才算极端反宗教？

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:49:11

本帖最后由 lzhizhao 于 2014-6-18 22:54 编辑

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:43
对，我知道你有很多宗教方面很多不好例子

问题是，中国勉强算是不信教的，那些大活动（不好的例子）， ...

我说过了：有和没有宗教，你说的中国那些大型事件还是都会发生，但是没有了宗教，宗教的大型事件不会发生。

PS，如果你说中共的某些行为的话，我认为中共在某段时间是非常的个人崇拜和吧毛某称神的，我们管这个叫做政治宗教。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:55:58

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:44
世界上的邪恶是很多的我们只能慢慢清除。

我这里借用别人的话，说这话的人是直面异义：

哎呀，咱俩沟通不在一个调上，很多问题你没从逻辑上反驳我（至少是在不信教的人们，不好的例子）

个人观点，我不认为只有科学才能抗衡，只有以法律为主（做到严格意义上的公平公正）才能抗衡宗教。

新西兰和美国的法律不错（只是对内的）。关于美国对内民主公正，对外却，大家都知道

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-18 23:57:39

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:49
我说过了：有和没有宗教，你说的中国那些大型事件还是都会发生，但是没有了宗教，宗教的大型事件不会发生 ...

毛泽东时代结束后，还有很多大事件，所以，你懂的

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-18 23:59:25

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:55
哎呀，咱俩沟通不在一个调上，很多问题你没从逻辑上反驳我（至少是在不信教的人们，不好的例子）

个人 ...

我同意你的观点

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-19 00:03:01

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 22:55
哎呀，咱俩沟通不在一个调上，很多问题你没从逻辑上反驳我（至少是在不信教的人们，不好的例子）

个人 ...

不过直面异义说的很好的，现在宗教势力被压下去了所以装小绵羊，以前强大的时候对人类的各种迫害是残酷的。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-19 00:04:01

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 22:49
我说过了：有和没有宗教，你说的中国那些大型事件还是都会发生，但是没有了宗教，宗教的大型事件不会发生 ...

“我说过了：有和没有宗教，你说的中国那些大型事件还是都会发生，但是没有了宗教，宗教的大型事件不会发生。"

历史没有如果，所以你的观点不成立。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-19 00:07:14

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 23:03
不过直面异义说的很好的，现在宗教势力被压下去了所以装小绵羊，以前强大的时候对人类的各种迫害是残酷的 ...

我不同意你的观点，任何势力强大的时候（包括宗教），各种迫害都是残酷的，近有卡扎菲，勉强有萨达姆。

所以只有公平公正的法律才是大家希望的

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-19 00:07:56

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 23:07
我不同意你的观点，任何势力强大的时候（包括宗教），各种迫害都是残酷的，近有卡扎菲，勉强有萨达姆。
...

不扯淡了，我要走啦

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-19 00:10:31

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 23:04
“我说过了：有和没有宗教，你说的中国那些大型事件还是都会发生，但是没有了宗教，宗教的大型事件不会发 ...

ok，那么看看现在：宗教对非洲使用避孕套的阻碍导致艾滋病在非洲的扩散，宗教对干细胞研究的阻挠导致一个在医学上可以有重大突破的研究进展缓慢，人类对气候的改变也是宗教一直否认的事情（这种否认在全球决策上起到了反面的作用）这些都是正在进行的事情。

还有，宗教对同性恋的反对导致众多同性恋者被歧视和无法得到应有的幸福。

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-19 00:12:36

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 23:07
我不同意你的观点，任何势力强大的时候（包括宗教），各种迫害都是残酷的，近有卡扎菲，勉强有萨达姆。
...

但是我同意你的观点啊，我也觉得法律应该代替宗教。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-19 00:17:10

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 23:10
ok，那么看看现在：宗教对非洲使用避孕套的阻碍导致艾滋病在非洲的扩散，宗教对干细胞研究的阻挠导致一个 ...

法海哥，您这是何苦来哉？为何一定要纠着这个宗教的坏处不放。

对你来说，宗教肯定是不好的东西，那反面，不信的，应该是好的

神州大地，不信教者何其多（占大多数），发生的事，你能说“它们”是好的吗？

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-19 00:17:48

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 23:12
但是我同意你的观点啊，我也觉得法律应该代替宗教。

法律是大趋势

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-19 00:19:10

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 23:17
法海哥，您这是何苦来哉？为何一定要纠着这个宗教的坏处不放。

对你来说，宗教肯定是不好的东西，那反 ...

那我反问你加入宗教会让人变得更善良么？证据

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-19 00:21:57

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 23:17
法海哥，您这是何苦来哉？为何一定要纠着这个宗教的坏处不放。

对你来说，宗教肯定是不好的东西，那反 ...

链接，这个链接里面有世界各种道德指数，里面最道德的国家是无神论最多的国家，最不道德的国家是最宗教的国家。

作者: 逝水-流年 时间: 2014-6-19 00:22:02

lzhizhao 发表于 2014-6-18 23:19
那我反问你加入宗教会让人变得更善良么？证据

终于正面的回答我问题了

在现代的法律制约下，加入宗教，能让人变得更善良，西方发达国家就是例子，最起码他们愿意去帮助陌生人

作者: lzhizhao 时间: 2014-6-19 00:28:12

逝水-流年发表于 2014-6-18 23:22
终于正面的回答我问题了

在现代的法律制约下，加入宗教，能让人变得更善良，西方发达国家就是例子 ...

但是为什么美国的一个研究显示：宗教人员的离婚率比非宗教人员高，宗教人口的家庭暴力比非宗教人口多？

这里有份比较详细的研究报告：
http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/ ... rman_on_Atheism.pdf

这里是另外一个关于全球开心指数的报道：
Some interesting takeaways:

1. The poor are more religious than the rich. People in the bottom income groups are 17 percent more religious than those in the top income groups.

2. Globally, the number of those claiming to be religious has dropped by 9 percent from 2005 to 2011, while the number of people identifying themselves as atheists has risen by 3 percent.

3. Four countries have experienced a drop in religiosity in their populations that is greater than 20 percent between 2005 and 2012. France and Switzerland saw decreases of 21 percent, while Ireland's number of faithful declined by 22 percent and Vietnam's by 23 percent.

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